Sucide rates in developed countiries

[Valach]

Hi,

I was wondering, why there is quite high suicide rates in countries that would be considered to be higher in spiral dynamics? For example scandinavia is quite known to have a high suicide rate? I though maybe, because people don't have to worry about their survival that much, they time to realize their own suffering? Anybody got any insights into this? Thanks

[DocHoliday]

probably in many cases because consumerism and the constant pursuit of materialistic pleasures just isn't truly fulfilling in the end and people lack the spiritual connection. They are (likely) too seperated from the world as it actually is. And due to this lacking connection, life just becomes very meaningless in the negative sort of way, not the neutral one, unfortunately.

Edited August 26, 2019 by DocHoliday

[Yog]

Flatter hierarchies = lower serotonin = lower life orientation = depression = suicide.
Get something for free = lower serotonin = lower life orientation = depression = suicide.

The more equatable things are, the less creatures can orient, get depressed and die off, this is not just for humans.
They want to know what is high and what is low. So they know what to work towards and not just get it for free.
Even rats do. That is how you get a rat depressed. You give him free cheese.

Low social inequality , free education, free healthcare, welfare is a very recent development and it hijacks our biology. We are not build for such comfort and care. We are build for conflict. Biologically. And we do not know yet how to deal with the negative effects of this.

Also add on-top the Nordic low light conditions and their influence on serotonin and dopamine levels. I think in the past they compensated that with the high striving and conflict they got at those harsh and desolate environments. Also their dairy heavy diet. Now they got the comfort of the high tech houses, free resources + no conflict.

You know what that means for vikings, no Valhalla it means . It also makes people susceptible to archetypal forces. Its no wonder that in these highly progressive countries you get this much of far-right ethnocentric and pagan rise. The pull can be strong when you lack direction.

I am relay interested in how will all of that be be solved. When they solve this, the rest of the world will get the solution way easier when they get at green. So I bow to that. I know they will pull it off.

Green society has its own problems.
Just as orange has, just as blue has.

I am relay eager to see how will it turn out.
 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Yog

[DocHoliday]

3 minutes ago, Yog said:

Flatter hierarchies = lower serotonin = lower life orientation = depression = suicide.
Get something for free = lower serotonin = lower life orientation = depression = suicide.

@Yog That's an interesting perspective! And also one that does have some truth to it, indeed.

[Yog]

@DocHoliday I'd say there is probably way more to it than that.

Eg: technology such as smartphones, social media, easy entertainment like games ,tv shows, and porn.
Those only feed into that for sure. Still I think it is a good base.


I like to think of it it as a game :

Character is starting at level 1, placed in room 3, with full backpack of potions, gear.

Player skipped all the tutorials, didn't acquire the pieces one by one to learn what they do, didn't grind and learn those tricks on the way to level 3, you should by design be in room 3 only when you reach level 3, and you are not.  So you manage to find out that you can mount your sword, you manage to kill few mobs and you get to room 4. its a boss room. A dragon shows up, and you know only how to left click attack.

Some kill the dragon, some get eaten by it.
its sad to see.
Still I do have some solid hope they will do a good job of fixing that.

 

[TheAlchemist]

Loneliness, lack of community.

[outlandish]

 

On 8/26/2019 at 11:52 AM, Valach said:

For example scandinavia is quite known to have a high suicide rate? 

It's "known" to have a high suicide rate, but this is just an assumption/myth that's passed around without statistical basis. In truth Scandinavia doesn't have a particularly high suicide rate. For example, USA has a higher suicide rate than Sweden, Norway, Iceland and Denmark:

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/suicide-rate-by-country/

The highest suicide rates are currently in Lithuania, Russia, Guyana, and S. Korea. The lowest suicide rates are in the Caribbean.

 

[outlandish]

On 8/26/2019 at 0:43 PM, Yog said:

Flatter hierarchies = lower serotonin = lower life orientation = depression = suicide.
Get something for free = lower serotonin = lower life orientation = depression = suicide.

This is a cute theory that's often rolled out in different formats, but a good theory should be able to make good predictions, and this one does not.

If this one were true, you'd expect that in an experiment where the same country went socialist vs. capitalist, you'd see higher suicide in the socialist country. We have a pretty good experiment in Korea, the south went capitalist democracy and the north went socialist dictatorship. You'd expect N. Korea to have higher suicide rates, however it's S. Korea that has a much higher suicide rate. 

Of course N. Korea is a horrible dictatorship that censors information, so that figure could be questionable, so let's look at a more reliable example... 

You could also compare Canada vs. USA, where Canada has a flatter hierarchy, and more socialist society than the USA. You would expect a higher suicide rate in Canada (especially considering the compounding affect of difficult weather!), yet the USA has a 25% higher suicide rate than Canada. (USA: 15.3 suicides per 100k people per year.  Canada: 12.5 per 100k people per year.).

You could also compare China vs. Japan, 

This myth of socialism leading to suicide needs to be shot down, over and over, because it truly is a myth that gets repeated all the time as "common sense" without any reference to the actual facts. This myth is often held up an objection to instituting social programs (medical care, education etc.), but it's erroneous. 

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by outlandish
typos etc

[Aeris]

On 26/08/2019 at 9:43 PM, Yog said:

Flatter hierarchies = lower serotonin = lower life orientation = depression = suicide.
Get something for free = lower serotonin = lower life orientation = depression = suicide.

The more equatable things are, the less creatures can orient, get depressed and die off, this is not just for humans.
They want to know what is high and what is low. So they know what to work towards and not just get it for free.
Even rats do. That is how you get a rat depressed. You give him free cheese.

Low social inequality , free education, free healthcare, welfare is a very recent development and it hijacks our biology. We are not build for such comfort and care. We are build for conflict. Biologically. And we do not know yet how to deal with the negative effects of this.

Also add on-top the Nordic low light conditions and their influence on serotonin and dopamine levels. I think in the past they compensated that with the high striving and conflict they got at those harsh and desolate environments. Also their dairy heavy diet. Now they got the comfort of the high tech houses, free resources + no conflict.

You know what that means for vikings, no Valhalla it means . It also makes people susceptible to archetypal forces. Its no wonder that in these highly progressive countries you get this much of far-right ethnocentric and pagan rise. The pull can be strong when you lack direction.

I am relay interested in how will all of that be be solved. When they solve this, the rest of the world will get the solution way easier when they get at green. So I bow to that. I know they will pull it off.

Green society has its own problems.
Just as orange has, just as blue has.

I am relay eager to see how will it turn out.
 

that's because weed isn't free.

and video games totaly fullfil the need for war and killing and all others "valhala" things.

if someone doesn't feel fulfiled, there is still MMA free fight club,

start your chance young viking

Everyone would want a blank state where there is inside absolute freedom, that's what most high conscious society are leading toward.

and then the super high coral society would be without the meaningless biologic body, we would directly have technology to clean our shadows without work etc.. 

just like dmt create satori easily.

anyway this is non sense, no humans want a death fight to get cheese. 

rats are not humans, and all studies based upon rats cannot be trusted by the way.

[Valach]

@outlandish Yes, Indeed scandinavian countries are not that high for developed countries. However I was comparing them to underdeveloped countries in africa, south america and so on. 

Also how is according to you scandinavia socialist? They have free market with strong welfare system.

[Yog]

@outlandish
Oh no mate. Its just a cute single little line of thinking, would not call it a theory myself, nor a bold claim.

Its based on an impression I got from my empirical observations when I lived in Denmark. Seen a lot of self reported or acted out depression and lack of general life direction. I do not get it here nearly as much, people know what to get away from and that is enough to drive them like crazy. Just an observation mixed in with some biology.

Part of that line of thinking was of serotonin being a crucial factor in depression, it is in the lack of it what makes creatures depressed. Sunlight does impact serotonin, but so do societal hierarchies :the more you can climb them and the worse the thing is you need to get away from, the better will you do at generating it. If fair play is present that is, if it is a tyrannical case, you will not.

This is for humans, apes and it goes way further than that. its not just based on rats, we have human research and technology that does this, its the anti-depressant pill. @Aeris , and you don't need to death fight over cheese to get conflict. Just observe the greatest impression of the last movie you watched, and notice why you liked it. Conflict, all sorts of it. And conflict is present when things are different and not the same.

So in one sense, the most depressed places should be the most tyrannical and the most caring.

I also wouldn't call the Nordic countries socialist. I'd say they got a new thing going. A hybrid and I love it.

Nor would I compare depression/suicide rates of any countries based on their political/economical systems myself. I think there is way more going on. It may be climate, culture, local genetic factors, geography, or a single overblown self sustaining local meme that leaks into the world. I wouldn't do the comparing it in the case of Scandinavia. They are the only ones on this planet that have that thing going as I am aware.

I do not think the rates are reliable anyway, you will always get high suicide rates in the most corrupt countries, you can't let your cousin go to jail, you write that murder off as a suicide, its a common drill. Especially in 3rd or 2nd world countries. I am not disputing the Scandinavian rates here.

 

[outlandish]

@Valach Socialism is a spectrum, and all countries are more or less socialist, and in multiple dimensions. Many people consider Scandinavian countries to be socialist because they have more socialized institutions than say the USA. But it's all relative, so yeah, if you don't consider Scandinavian countries to be socialist, that's fair enough. There's not a distinct line in the sand that separates socialist from capitalist.

[Commodent]

When external threats are few, the body turns against itself.

In my view it is indeed a sign of increased development. When material needs are handled, the focus turns increasingly turns inwards towards internal barriers. As hunter-gatherers we were simply too focused on trying to survive to be bothered with that. But now such internal barriers seems monumental and we end up killing ourselves instead.

[outlandish]

1 minute ago, Commodent said:

When external threats are few, the body turns against itself.

In my view it is indeed a sign of increased development. When material needs are handled, the focus turns increasingly turns inwards towards internal barriers. As hunter-gatherers we were simply too focused on trying to survive to be bothered with that. But now such internal barriers seems monumental and we end up killing ourselves instead.

Yes I think there's something here!.. I think it's why we seek healthy challenges and adversity in arenas like music, sport, martial arts, debate etc. Otherwise we find adversity in less healthy avenues like poor health, fighting with our companions, depressive spirals and so on.

[d0ornokey]

Poor parenting, some immigrants come to usa and have their toxic parenting styles from their country (tiger parenting) 

Bullying 

Lack of healthcare for some to gain access to therapy 

Stigma for therapy not allowing access to therapy 

Video game & internet culture causing isolation 

School systems lack of focus on happiness, mental health, coping skills, emotional intelligence, purpose 

Success driven culture, prioritizing jobs and success over personal values, intuitive life, and slow & conscious life 

Men having stigma for not being able to speak about emotions 

Underdeveloped neighborhoods with Red, violent culture 

Media teaching lack of self worth through negative ads 

Holy fuck i just realized the issue is fucking systemic 

Guys we have to bring systemic thinking to solve these problems. Theres just too many factors at play 

Edited August 29, 2019 by d0ornokey

[Surfingthewave]

It is a systemic issue but it also about treatment for depression. Stigma of mental health. You break a leg, you talk about it, people ask if you're ok. You have a serious mental health issue, you don't talk about it, you get worse.

In under developed countries, treatment for mental illnesses are seen as more of a community issue perhaps rather than an individuals? Treatments vary such as ayahuasca ceremonies, and seen as more of a link to spirit than anything else. A sense of being part of something bigger really can save your life. In the more developed world social isolation, is also a factor. 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Surfingthewave