The Amount of Concentration Needed for Enlightenment

[ardacigin]

I've recently read this from Culadasa's Dharma website. I'm directly quoting the article from there as it is very precise and to the point:

-------------------

Exactly how much concentration is needed to attain enlightenment?

Stable one-pointedness in the degree corresponding to what is known as ‘Access Samadhi’ to some and ‘Jhana Light’ to others. Other aliases this samadhi is known by include ‘samatha’, ‘the first proximate stabilization of calm abiding’ and ‘shi-neh’.

Is jhana heavy absolutely necessary?

Cultivation of ‘jhana heavy’ is totally unnecessary for achieving the first stage of Enlightenment, Sotapanna, although it will spontaeously occur at the time of attainment. It becomes prevalent in the stage of Sakadagami and onward, developing naturally and easily.

Is dry insight sufficient?

Trick question. If you examine so-called ‘dry insight’, it is a method that involves achieving the level of samadhi identified as ‘access’ or ‘jhana light’ above, but without strictly limiting oneself to using a fixed object during the process. It has the advantage of developing a high level of sati, while pure samatha practice can result in access samadhi or jhana with significant dullness and relatively little sati.

Mahasi Sayadaw provides a precise description of access samadhi in the Progress of Insight but he calls it “Knowedge of Arising and Passing Away”. U Pandita in In This Very Life and On The Path To Freedomdescribes exactly the same thing in very similar words, and even explicitly labels it as “Vipassana Jhana”, in which the first three vipassana jhanas are unmistakably what is otherwise known as “access samadhi”, or in our little circle, “jhana light”.

As so many great masters of centuries past have repeated over and again, there is no Insight without Samadhi, and Samadhi without Insight cannot bring Enlightenment.

A better question would be: “Is dry insight practice as effective at developing the necessary concentration as samatha followed by insight?”

My answer: Perhaps for some, but probably not for most people.

And the distinction between access samadhi and khanika samadhi is more apparent than real when one has done this practice for a while. What is the difference between stable one-pointedness that lasts one hour and stable one-pointedness that lasts for 30 minutes? Duration, nothing more. What is the difference between access samadhi sustained for five minutes and access samadhi sustained for five seconds? Only 295 seconds, nothing else. I am sure that those of you who have become skilled at access, aka jhana light, have noticed that after you have been doing this for a while you can shift the attention from the meditation object to the light, or the experience of piti-sukha, or the clarity of the mind, and so on without losing focus. Some of you have probably noticed that the mind can even dabble in some discursive thought along the way at the access/jhana light level without losing its stability. It is only in the early stages of achieving this samadhi that such transitions of object cause loss of stability.

What makes Mahasi style Vipasanna practice special is that by making the arising and passing away of momentary experience its primary focus, it allows us to know what is going on behind the seemingly continuous and stable perceptual continuum we usually dwell in.

For those of you who are familiar with the physics of light, it has the characteristics of both a wave and a particle simultaneously. If you design an experiement to reveal its wave-like properties, that is what you find. If you look instead for its particle-like behaviour, that is what you see. Does this remind anyone else but me of jhana (heavy type) and bhanga-nana?

Once there is access samadhi, you can go either of two ways with it, just like the physicist can with light. Take the khanika path and it is Access to Insight (Mahasi style). Take the apana path and it is Access to Jhana.

[Alex bliss]

Do you think culadasa is enlightened?

[ardacigin]

3 hours ago, Alex bliss said:

Do you think culadasa is enlightened?

From an outer perspective, he is not only enlightened but rather deeply enlightened in many aspects. Of course, he is not perfect. He has shadow aspects like all of us and even if he may not be a complete arhat, it is undeniable from his works that he is more advanced and spiritually awake than 99% of human beings. 

He has written one of the most detailed and well structured meditation book of modern times: The Mind İlluminated.

Try the techniques and see if they work  

 

[Dovahkiin]

@ardacigin I like that metaphor of particle -- single-pointed practice -- jhana, and wave -- awareness -- insight. It does seem "dry insight" is a bit of a misnomer, because in the Mahasi style you're developing concentration through your primary object. I'm curious if what I've heard about concentration attainments being irrelevant to the first few paths but then necessary for the third has anything to it.

[ardacigin]

2 hours ago, Dovahkiin said:

@ardacigin I like that metaphor of particle -- single-pointed practice -- jhana, and wave -- awareness -- insight. It does seem "dry insight" is a bit of a misnomer, because in the Mahasi style you're developing concentration through your primary object. I'm curious if what I've heard about concentration attainments being irrelevant to the first few paths but then necessary for the third has anything to it.

Mahasi noting has a concentration aspect to it so it is essentially an advanced samatha vipassana technique designed to facilitate insight. But you can also attempt to do this without any stable attention or awareness skills, then it becomes a dry insight approach like self inquiry. 

You can skip the concentration and stable attention development for the first stage of awakening (stream entry) but to advance further mastering the path of stable attention and strong mindfulness is essential. 

[Leo Gura]

Dry insight tends to work very poorly in my experience.

The key function of psychedelics is to lube up the mind, placing it in a deep samadhi state from which profound insight becomes almost effortless.

Psychedelics are samadhi in a pill.

[Matt8800]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Dry insight tends to work very poorly in my experience.

The key function of psychedelics is to lube up the mind, placing it in a deep samadhi state from which profound insight becomes almost effortless.

Psychedelics are samadhi in a pill.

@Leo GuraExactly. Couldnt have said it better myself.

I started my path very much on the dry side. It got less dry over time though.

For me, the dry path was excellent at transcending the ego but was lacking after that.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Matt8800

[passerby]

8 hours ago, Alex bliss said:

Do you think culadasa is enlightened?

Check out the reddit r/streamentry and r/themindilluminated Culadasa was recently (like over the last week) stood down due to it coming out hes been having sexual relations with many people who are not his wife. I don't know too much about it, but it was a big thing over on those sub reddits during the past week.

another guru scandal

btw, this shouldn't deter you from his book, the techniques are still solid. but once again, don't forget to "kill the buddha"

heres the link to the one in the streamentry sub: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/cspe6n/conductcommunity_culadasa_misconduct_update/

Edited August 27, 2019 by passerby

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, passerby said:

Check out the reddit r/streamentry and r/themindilluminated Culadasa was recently (like over the last week) stood down due to it coming out hes been having sexual relations with many people who are not his wife. I don't know too much about it, but it was a big thing over on those sub reddits during the past week.

another guru scandal

btw, this shouldn't deter you from his book, the techniques are still solid. but once again, don't forget to "kill the buddha"

heres the link to the one in the streamentry sub: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/cspe6n/conductcommunity_culadasa_misconduct_update/

Lol

So classic

[Mu_]

18 hours ago, ardacigin said:

I've recently read this from Culadasa's Dharma website. I'm directly quoting the article from there as it is very precise and to the point:

-------------------

Exactly how much concentration is needed to attain enlightenment?

Stable one-pointedness in the degree corresponding to what is known as ‘Access Samadhi’ to some and ‘Jhana Light’ to others. Other aliases this samadhi is known by include ‘samatha’, ‘the first proximate stabilization of calm abiding’ and ‘shi-neh’.

Is jhana heavy absolutely necessary?

Cultivation of ‘jhana heavy’ is totally unnecessary for achieving the first stage of Enlightenment, Sotapanna, although it will spontaeously occur at the time of attainment. It becomes prevalent in the stage of Sakadagami and onward, developing naturally and easily.

Is dry insight sufficient?

Trick question. If you examine so-called ‘dry insight’, it is a method that involves achieving the level of samadhi identified as ‘access’ or ‘jhana light’ above, but without strictly limiting oneself to using a fixed object during the process. It has the advantage of developing a high level of sati, while pure samatha practice can result in access samadhi or jhana with significant dullness and relatively little sati.

Mahasi Sayadaw provides a precise description of access samadhi in the Progress of Insight but he calls it “Knowedge of Arising and Passing Away”. U Pandita in In This Very Life and On The Path To Freedomdescribes exactly the same thing in very similar words, and even explicitly labels it as “Vipassana Jhana”, in which the first three vipassana jhanas are unmistakably what is otherwise known as “access samadhi”, or in our little circle, “jhana light”.

As so many great masters of centuries past have repeated over and again, there is no Insight without Samadhi, and Samadhi without Insight cannot bring Enlightenment.

A better question would be: “Is dry insight practice as effective at developing the necessary concentration as samatha followed by insight?”

My answer: Perhaps for some, but probably not for most people.

And the distinction between access samadhi and khanika samadhi is more apparent than real when one has done this practice for a while. What is the difference between stable one-pointedness that lasts one hour and stable one-pointedness that lasts for 30 minutes? Duration, nothing more. What is the difference between access samadhi sustained for five minutes and access samadhi sustained for five seconds? Only 295 seconds, nothing else. I am sure that those of you who have become skilled at access, aka jhana light, have noticed that after you have been doing this for a while you can shift the attention from the meditation object to the light, or the experience of piti-sukha, or the clarity of the mind, and so on without losing focus. Some of you have probably noticed that the mind can even dabble in some discursive thought along the way at the access/jhana light level without losing its stability. It is only in the early stages of achieving this samadhi that such transitions of object cause loss of stability.

What makes Mahasi style Vipasanna practice special is that by making the arising and passing away of momentary experience its primary focus, it allows us to know what is going on behind the seemingly continuous and stable perceptual continuum we usually dwell in.

For those of you who are familiar with the physics of light, it has the characteristics of both a wave and a particle simultaneously. If you design an experiement to reveal its wave-like properties, that is what you find. If you look instead for its particle-like behaviour, that is what you see. Does this remind anyone else but me of jhana (heavy type) and bhanga-nana?

Once there is access samadhi, you can go either of two ways with it, just like the physicist can with light. Take the khanika path and it is Access to Insight (Mahasi style). Take the apana path and it is Access to Jhana.

As I read this description of enlightenment, I wonder what in the world this word means to so many people.  Is there actually some thing called enlightenment?  Is what you described the equivalent of making a muscle form on ones arm that has function, reproduceable by some, or all and what is this function?  And is what is reproduced through this system called enlightenment or a particular type of human potential that is then given a name called enlightenment by ones who have encountered it.  Or perhaps is ALL an unfolding which includes these types of muscle formations and flexings along with everything before and after these systems of insights, breathing, sitting and concentration....

Edited August 27, 2019 by Mu_

[Jordan94]

What do you think of fire kasina to develop concentration ?

 

I've heard some people say that it's really effective and even a quite fast path to get to deep concentration states or 1st jhana, I've started practicing it a little bit and it does seem easier to get concentrated than other practices for me

[ardacigin]

58 minutes ago, Jordan94 said:

What do you think of fire kasina to develop concentration ?

Hi Jordan. I'm not experienced in kasina practices. Daniel Ingram talks about it a lot though. Give it a try and if you get value from it, write down a post in detail how you do the technique, I'd be glad to learn from your experience  

[ardacigin]

6 hours ago, passerby said:

Culadasa was recently (like over the last week) stood down due to it coming out hes been having sexual relations with many people who are not his wife.

Yes. This is something I'm aware of as well. I've listened to Culadasa's life story, bipolar disorder and traumatic childhood experiences in his deconstruct yourself podcast.  

The claim: Culadasa spent money on hookers even though he is a family man. He lied to his family and engaged in adultery. 

A little bit of context is important. This guy had left his family and house when we was 15 years old. He was homeless for years. Try to imagine. His mother had severe psychological problems. Culadasa never went to public school in those 15 years. Very little social contact with his peers. Sometime down the line, he was admitted to a psychiatric hospital. 

Now for someone who had such traumatic experiences and depression, Culadasa experienced very deep states of meditation. His level of awakening is high. But as Ken Wilber talks about, he still needs work in 'cleaning up'. Culadasa is currently open to enter therapy to work with his shadow aspects.

I'm not defending Culadasa but I can certainly understand these sort of ego backlashes due to his past. I'd expect someone who lived Culadasa's life to end up a criminal or a crazy person, but he did 180 and became a spiritual teacher.

Culadasa's circumstances are similar to Joshua Sasaki Roshi. 'Waking up' line of development is very high, but there are still works to be done in morality and 'cleaning up'. And that doesn't mean TMI is bad. It just means that you need to supplement TMI with psychotherapy.

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by ardacigin

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Leo Gura Why do you think these sexual-misconducts and scandels are happening over and over again, I mean Ken Wilber recommends shadow work for this and I've read that he beated his wife on a spiritual wiki site and he admitting doing it. I am sort of disappointed that it often goes to such extremes, I'd rather have a spiritual master admitting he is poly and gay, than being corrupted by their past, desires etc.. Are there even any enlightend people who did not this ? 

Edited August 27, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[ardacigin]

12 minutes ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

Are there even any enlightend people who did not this ? 

I'm pretty sure that are people like that. Because there are upstanding moral individuals who are not awake spiritually at all.  Awakening makes this process easier but doesn't guarantee anything. For instance, I'm not aware that Eckhart Tolle, Sahdguru or Shinzen have done such immoral behaviors. So it is possible. These are just different lines of development.

Edited August 27, 2019 by ardacigin

[Jordan94]

1 hour ago, ardacigin said:

Hi Jordan. I'm not experienced in kasina practices. Daniel Ingram talks about it a lot though. Give it a try and if you get value from it, write down a post in detail how you do the technique, I'd be glad to learn from your experience  

Yea i've seen that Daniel Ingram has some content about that

 

As far as my experience with the technique, so far I'm staring at a light source, trying to blink or move the eyes as little as possible, for between 5 secondes and 1 minute depending on the light source, then closing my eyes, there will be a after image appearing, then I watch the after-image, it will also change form and color

When it's disapearing I try to see it again, sometimes it appears a bit again then I watch it, if not I reopen my eyes staring at the light source and same steps as above

 

At first I tried with the LED of my phone but it seems like it might be damaging for the retina long term so I stopped, instead I'm using some images that are made to facilitate having after image after staring at them for a bit, those ones : https://imgur.com/gallery/n2FCnd1 

People recommend using a candle a lot rather than phone LED or bulb from what I've seen, those images that I linked seems to be safe for the eye and work for me well so far

 

And as far as result, it's insanely new (just tried yesterday), but seems like it gets me more easily concentrate and calm the mind a bit more than other practices, so will continue experimenting with a little bit of it before my breath sits

[passerby]

@Jordan94 find the Trataka sections in the index of this online book, then find those pages. It contains more info on trataka than anywhere you will find online  https://archive.org/details/DharanaDarsanaYogicTantricAndUpanashidicPracticesOfConentrationAndVisualisationS

[ValiantSalvatore]

@ardacigin Yes, it is possible, but does not answer my question at all. I asked why does this happen over and over again and was curious if shadow work or what Wilber recommends works. I can attest for it also using psychdelics in combination with shadow work can unbury some hidden gems regardless of what it might reveal about yourself, what you don't like. 

Yes, spiritual pratices help with recognizing or becoming aware of behaviour, still the subconscious runs very deep. Most people don't do a shadow practices and therefore miss that line, Wilber also mentions there is a 3-2-1-0 pratices which helps with emotions. So I was curious or would be curious if for e.g Culadasa or some other person like Sasaki Roshi would go to a therapist and do shadow work, if they could stop their behaviour completely, and indulge in a healthy version of it somehow. 

I don't think that this is to radical or to open-minded for a spiritual master to be in a different form of relationship, if it does not suit him or his style of personality. Yet, I could be biased. It's unfortunate to hear something like this again, since I liked Culadasa a lot and binge watched his patron Q&A's.
 

Edited August 27, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

but does not answer my question at all. I asked why does this happen over and over again

Because people are horny dogs! Just like you.

Don't overthink it

Remember, survival does not stop after enlightenment. The only way to escape survival is to jump off a cliff.

[ajasatya]

7 hours ago, Mu_ said:

As I read this description of enlightenment, I wonder what in the world this word means to so many people.  Is there actually some thing called enlightenment?  Is what you described the equivalent of making a muscle form on ones arm that has function, reproduceable by some, or all and what is this function?  And is what is reproduced through this system called enlightenment or a particular type of human potential that is then given a name called enlightenment by ones who have encountered it.  Or perhaps is ALL an unfolding which includes these types of muscle formations and flexings along with everything before and after these systems of insights, breathing, sitting and concentration....

There certainly is the end of existential suffering, deep understanding of the mystical nature of Reality and attainment of ridiculous levels of Wisdom that merge oneness and everyday life (aka duality). I'd call that pack of achievements by Enlightenment.