Using Psychedelics while confronting suffering?

[Scholar]

I wonder if anyone is using psychedelics in a non-pleasant environment to develope oneself? For example, using it while watching terrible war videos or slaughterhouse footage. It seems like most of the time the more pleasent aspects of reality are being investigated, but why do we not investigate the terrible ones?

Maybe we can gain deeper insights into the nature of suffering that we have not yet discovered? I mean saying suffeirng is illusion is a very surface level insight, maybe there is more to it? Maybe there is depth of these aspects, and maybe their unpleasentness makes us avoid to truly dive into them?

 

[Forestluv]

@Scholar This is unnecessary. Pyschedelic experiences can be absolutely terrifying and insane. Even sitting in one's room or nature. I can't even begin to describe some of mine. This can expand one's mind, yet I think it is a bad idea to manipulate an environment to try and induce trauma. If the mind-body was not experienced with psychedelics and highly developed this could cause serious damage, perhaps long term. I think it's much better to just allow the psychedelic to reveal what it reveals. Perhaps have an intention that suffering be revealed during the trip. Yet I wouldn't go further than that. Psychedelics can take a mind to a place of terror all on it's own. And it is as real as reality itself.

Yet, I also agree with the flip side, that one should not chase or expect feel good candy during trips either.

[Scholar]

12 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Scholar This is unnecessary. Pyschedelic experiences can be absolutely terrifying and insane. Even sitting in one's room or nature. I can't even begin to describe some of mine. This can expand one's mind, yet I think it is a bad idea to manipulate an environment to try and induce trauma. If the mind-body was not experienced with psychedelics and highly developed this could cause serious damage, perhaps long term. I think it's much better to just allow the psychedelic to reveal what it reveals. Perhaps have an intention that suffering be revealed during the trip. Yet I wouldn't go further than that. Psychedelics can take a mind to a place of terror all on it's own. And it is as real as reality itself.

Yet, I also agree with the flip side, that one should not chase or expect feel good candy during trips either.

But how do you know this? Have you ever taken psychedelics while confronting suffering outside of the psychedelic experience itself? Infact, do you know a single person who did this intentionally?

From me it seems like psychedelics are being used in a perfect bubble, instead of the full spectrum of reality, because it is uncomfortable to us. But how can we expect to learn about all aspects of the relative world if we are only willing to face our microcosm of spirituality. Should spirituality and psychedelic use not be all encompassing?

Look at people like Christ who was directly confronting suffering. What spiritual teacher, even the most advanced ones like Sadhguru, do you see actually helping the poorest of the poor? I see a lot of talk about Love, but I do not see action. Would Leo for example be able to compose himself in a situation in which those around him suffering greatly, want to kill him etc.? 

How can we expect to understand Love in all it's fascets if we just sit in our perfectly designed caves? What if a bad trip is nothing compared to a bad trip confronting suffering? And what if it requires that inhuman amount of suffering for us to get a deeper understanding of it?

 

Can you have true empathy for someone who exists in terror, if you yourself have never truly experienced terror yourself? If we knew what terror was, could we still watch idly while others are experiencing it? Would we not behave fundamentally differently if we knew what it is like to be enslaved?

Edited August 24, 2019 by Scholar

[Forestluv]

9 hours ago, Scholar said:

Have you ever taken psychedelics while confronting suffering outside of the psychedelic experience itself? 

Yes.

I think what you are suggesting may have value in certain contexts, yet I think we need to be aware of how much leverage psychedelics can have. It can increase ones empathy capacity 1000x, I already have a high baseline for empathy, so what you are saying is going through and empathetic filter. Upon further contemplation, I’m trying to imagine creating a psychedelic trauma setting for someone who lacks empathy. It’s really hard for me to imagine, since I have a high empathy baseline. Yet, I think it could have some benefit for certain people if done in moderation. For example, determining a baseline empathy score and adjusting dose and setting intensity to that score.  

I know what you are suggesting could be like for people with the capacity for empathy. Yet I don’t know what it would be like for people that lack the capacity for empathy, such as narcissists. I think it could be an interesting treatment strategy. As well, mico/mini dosing plus prompts may have benefit. Yet for people with a decent capacity for empathy or who have had past trauma, I don’t think a strong trip in a trauma setting is a good idea, because the psychedelic can amplify empathy to the point that the person themself is being traumatized. It is tortuous to the person. 

Psychedelic experiences are Real and can have a serious impact. It’s not like watching a movie. I think for people with the capacity for empathy, what you are suggesting could create scenarios akin to putting someone in a dark cell solitary confinement for 40 days, dropping an 8 y.o. child in the center of Mumbai India by themself or forcing a parent to watch their child get tortured. This is how Real it can get. It can get so extreme, it becomes tortuous. I don’t think that is what you are getting at: to torture and traumatize someone so they know what torture and traumatization feels like. 

For most people, I think a better method would be to have an intention and orientation to learn about human suffering and allowing the psychedelics to reveal. Or going on a mini dose trip and speaking to someone about their trauma. 

As well, I don’t know what the impact would be on people that lack the capacity for empathy, such as narcissists. In the future, guided psychedelic therapy to induce empathy may be useful in treating this condition, yet I think willingness, guidance and expertise would be necessary. Yet narcissists are oriented to deny, avoid, defend and block against any such treatment. Imagine giving Trump 200ug of LSD while he is in a detention facility with caged children. What impact might that have on him? I think that would be an interesting case. Could psychedelics + a trauma setting allow a person devoid of empathy to gain the capacity for empathy? Would he have an empathetic awakening of the heart? Or would he blow it off and recontextualuze it in his baseline narcissist mindset? That would be interesting to me. I dated a narcissist and often wondered if psychedelics could help her realize empathy. Yet I would never intentionally traumatize her to do so. I’m too empathetic to do that ?‍♂️