The Amazon a threat to our future

[Leo Gura]

 

[Scholar]

12 hours ago, remember said:

well yes probably - but even if the meat production or consumption is the problem/trigger (as you see they might constitute each other) it`s not the mechanism where you turn the screws. it`s important to integrate the meat consumption into the global picture, but remember the fire is always lokal not in the whole area. you can`t truly extinguish a fire where it`s not burning. also if there are two holes in the bucket and you can at first only fix one hole, you fix the one at the bottom first.

meat consumption is maybe the big big picture from a macroscopic view but the amazon is a fragile microcosm with a real body that is butchered in reality - a real vegan doesn`t only care for the cows.

we are both addressing issues that have to be addressed aswell globally as at the centers of where the fires are burning. but even then seen globally there are more fires than meat consumption. for example there must be a stop to selling property to countries on a global scale! for example there must be a limit of how much of land or living space can be owned by foreign people in a strange country! - if people don`t have any connection to the culture that is connected to the eart or inhabitants, people become numbers and life is on sale.

 

i`m addressing this because it`s also a problem in high rents in european cities (people get driven out of their homes in berlin) and not only in farm land, it`s a matter of defining what are natural and cultural and civil resources that are not on sale. like we are discussing here who ownes one of the biggest oxigen source in the world, can this be owned? who ownes the air? or some regional water supplies? there are things that shouldn`t be owned by anyone but be maintained for their resources of life and culture. water is high culture for example, only high cultures where able to maintain a general water supply, high culture maintains water as a human right in states ownership as it belongs to the country.

I am not sure you understand the gravity of the problem of animal agriculture. There is no other solution but to replace it. Watch the video Keyhole posted. Theres fires have been going on for years now. Not just in the amazon.

[Yog]

Hello darkness.
Maybe we should check out that laumberg guy,Or whatever his name is.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Yog

[Leo Gura]

@Yog Lol

[kieranperez]

7 hours ago, Yog said:

Hello darkness.
Maybe we should check out that laumberg guy,Or whatever his name is.

I swear he’s degrading

[Yog]

1 hour ago, kieranperez said:

I swear he’s degrading

Yea, you didn't see that one coming he has his worn days. Posted it half jokingly, seemed interestingly dark and funny.

Nevertheless.

Still, he did work on these issues for couple of years with the UN. Went trough the relevant literature and got some of the points right. This is as I see it, an opinion based on working with the worlds leading edge people that do these things. Not just some tired ramblings. No need to straw man the man because he had a bad day and said things in a bad vibe. Thus the humor happened. Take the content seriously, especially when it seems bizarre.

He may have good points, at least those that are driven by data and are proven to work. It not actually his, he is just referencing it. Its people that cause these things, politics, underdevelopment ect.

Not that I am defending or agreeing with it.
I honestly do not know what to do with it.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Yog

[MsNobody]

@kieranperez Everything he says is so confusing to me (and apparently for those students too, look at their “?” Faces

I can’t follow his train of thought, seems like he is just blabbering garbage and he drops some “intellectual” comments here and there about history or some complex subjects, to show confidence and to makes us think he knows what he is talking about. 

Very interesting figure. 

[MsNobody]

@Marks199 Im Brazilian and all I can do is cry cause I’m a sensitive bitch, I’ve been feeling so much pain in my heart, but this week I started to channel the energy and focus on my life purpose, I’ve been sharing videos with friends and had donated for amazon ONGs and tribes, and still I feel hopeless. 

My whole family loves Bolsonaro, they are also extremists, it’s just crazy how deluded and ignorant Brazilians are, some people don’t even believe that amazon is on fire, and think media is creating this story to destroy Bolsonaro’s image, my mom said that the black out at 3pm where the smoke took over São Paulo, was because of a fire in the countryside of the city, not from the amazon ? the ignorance is just immesurabble.. and knowing the president well I’m afraid to say he won’t stop so soon. 

What to do @Leo Gura

[Yog]

What is the current case .... how bad is it ?

[kieranperez]

43 minutes ago, MsNobody said:

What to do @Leo Gura

What would you want to do about it if you had no fear?

[StephenK]

I can't see a solution to any of this other than nature doing a hard reset on the human population through drought, famine and disease that will ultimately result from this. Those that choose to ignore it (the vast majority of the human population), will be the ones to perish en mass. Those societies that put plans in place, such as hydroponics, sustainable agriculture, solar, desalination and carbon-negative green/yellow systems and technologies will have a chance of surviving the onslaught. In other words, if we don't find a solution as a species, earth will implement it's own solution and the fittest will survive. If someone has a more optimistic outlook, please explain how it would play out? 

[StephenK]

@remember How do you see it playing out?

[Scholar]

7 hours ago, remember said:

@MsNobody massive reforrestation, worldwide pressure, ban of southamerican soy products in animal farming, help with the development of alternative money making, pressure on the super rich brazilians from foreign industries in all fields to put pressure on bolsonaro. as soon as possible so he`d allow foreign help with puting out the fire, his actions are a joke making a worldwide joke of brazil as he tries to make a joke of the world - that`s the only thing. and of course banging on the social media drum until more brazilians wake up.

 

Ban soy to feed the animals? What else are you going to feed them with? Grass, that requires far more land use than soy?

Soy already is the most efficient way of feeding landstock. Again, these solutions will do nothing to change anything as long as people demand and pay for this industry every single day of their life.

"I don't want you to burn down the forests!"

"Here, take my money, I want me beef."

 

These two actions are contradictory. You can't have both. It's not possible.

Sometimes there are no regulations to be made, sometimes the population needs to sacrifice it's own comfort for the greater good. Or atleast be smart about the solutions.

 

Regulations will be effective once there will be an alternative to animal farming, because then we will be able to satisfy the populations need. Do you still consume beef? If so, how can you possibly expect brazil to make a huge economic sacrifice to save their forests when you can't even let go of your steak to do the same?

[Scholar]

59 minutes ago, remember said:

@Scholar i`m a vegan.

but you see if the meat is cheep, of course they eat it every day... what the... even european farmers have to give up because of the massive price dumping it`s hillarious - it`s an overproduction crisis.

Yes but the problem is that the market will find solutions to cheapen the prices at all costs. They will lobby, they will invade other countries and burn their forests down. They will incentivise goverments to support them.

Don't forget that they are being funded by everyone who buys meat. That's billions of people. That won't just go away by regulation, especially when people aren't even informed that the problem is the meat industry. Currently you have western goverments subsidizing the costs of meat. Because of the demand of entire populations, goverments will use taxes to make meat affordable. And they have to, it's what the people want.

The people want meat.

 

Either we change the people's wants, or we find a better way to produce meat. I don't see any other viable option that will solve this problem in any meaningful way. If we had all the time in the world it would be different. But the facts are that our time is very limited. The only way to stop this it to create radical change.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Scholar

[Quicksilver]

If you are so worried about it, why not jump on a plane and join a humanitarian organisation in Brazil to save the forest? 

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, Quicksilver said:

If you are so worried about it, why not jump on a plane and join a humanitarian organisation in Brazil to save the forest? 

Because Brazilian forests are not the only thing people are worried about, aside from the fact that humanitarian organisations don't save forests.

[Quicksilver]

No the point is do something instead of moaning that the world does not conform to your ideals. 

Get out of your armchair and fix the issue!

[Scholar]

4 minutes ago, Quicksilver said:

No the point is do something instead of moaning that the world does not conform to your ideals. 

Get out of your armchair and fix the issue!

How do you propose to fix the issue?

[Quicksilver]

Don't ask me, thats for you to figure out. 

That's all life is about figuring out what to do next. 

[Scholar]

4 hours ago, Quicksilver said:

Don't ask me, thats for you to figure out. 

That's all life is about figuring out what to do next. 

Exactly. This is what we are doing here. Figuring it out.