Post Enlightenment

[Jkris]

When I read traditional enlightenment books I see

Absence of anger,hatred,greed,lust,fear,shame,guilt,tension.

Peace,love,patience,tolerance etc.

Most of these books are by monks they don't interact with the world except teachings.They are not house holders,they don't earn - money is provided to them.

They don't work volunteers,workers do the work for them.

Does enlightenment bring about all these necessary changes in the mind,personality or conditionings ?

Or

When these changes happen enlightenment is possible ?

Or the changes are about emotional mastery and that's all together different subject ?

But what about enlightened who are not monks but live as house holders ? Involved in job or business for living ?

How enlightened people interact with people especially in work,when orders received and orders given by them to subordinates and not able to complete on time ,deadlines are imposed ? - meaning if enlightened people are free from all turmoils,tension,anger in all situations,conditions ? Or they too act like other unrealised humans ?

Edited August 22, 2019 by Jkris

[WelcometoReality]

After you realize your true self there will still be energetic movements based on the separate self. Past conditioning that is still present within the body-mind. That energetic movement becomes weaker and weaker until it's completely dissipated and that's what is called enlightenment.

 

[tsuki]

@Jkris The way I see it, enlightenment is not merely an inner game.
It is something that occurs when the 'objective' circumstances relating to survival are met.
While it is certainly possible to get it through rejection of life, that kind of realization is incomplete (it is through negation, not affirmation).

Monks in monasteries meet these criteria and their discipline is the cohesive that keeps it in place.
For an enlightened householder, I would expect the inner peace to be something that is instantly re-established after being disturbed.
The things that would disturb an enlightened householder's peace would also be different from what a regular person finds disturbing (motivations, sphere of concern, etc).

[ThinAir]

I'm reading the book "persuing consciousness" atm. In the book the Peter Ralston (the author) says the following, which makes sense to me. He makes a clear distinction between enlightenment and transformation. Often people think that one includes the other, this is not a given.

He defines enlightenment as "becoming conscious of whats actually true". Classic enlightenment referst to becoming conscious of the truth about Self and what Reality is. 

This realization does not necessarily bring change or transformation with it, it is simply knowing whats true. Even thought in most cases when someone has an enlightenment experience, some aspect of the mind changes but by far not all of it.

Following: just because your aware of what the Truth is does not make you the best version of yourself

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by ThinAir

[SoonHei]

26 minutes ago, ThinAir said:

just because your aware of what the Truth is does not make you the best version of yourself

indeed

[Sri Ramana Maharshi]

Yeah. Persuing Consciousness clarifies a lot. But after those Contemplations are mastered, he really does zip things up in a more powerful, simpler, and staggeringly deeper extent in "The Genius of Being."

The practice of Vipassana was really being done hard here for a number of years (around 3 in a row, sometimes 6 hours of meditation a day). Who knows really what, if any, the correlation between meditation and Awakening (initial or otherwise or how the hell you slice it up)? Incidentally, the practice of Vipassana is still useful for some stuff, but not always done daily, even though in a way it is permament after a point regardless of formal sit or falling off a horse, driving a car...whatever. 

Enlightenment doesn't necessarily change shit. How could it? It is merely what's already True. What usually tends to happen (I was/am no exception) is your life gets worse because all the stuff that had pointers aiming stuff like "blame" outward, are now *absolutely* seen all the time to be within the domain of self-responsibility -- Your fucking mess. 

At this point, you'll tend to get lost in content either trying to fix it all or worrying about it so much you decomp or go nuts for a while, or worse. Blow out to straight Gonzo mode.

Or, you have a situation where you can practice and freak out without interference (not happening while anchored to any kind of usual "laylife") until you gain further Consciousness that frees to from clinging to "The Life Reality Illusion" [Peter's parlance here] to the extent you may not even give a shit about changing the "guy/gal" who is Being "me".

Some pie in the sky shit story about an Avatar who descends upon lotus feet wakes the fuck up and glows in Resplendant Perfection is the Bull. Hope you didn't find that One. He's everywhere. It's Delusion.

Doing a 1/2 punch rhythm of hard Contemplation (and doing *all* the excercises and grasping Insights) of Ralston's material, then burnout and Vipassana, then burnout and switch was a good system with "the practice here"....yet, I did get fortunate and find a 70+ year old teacher who has a direct lineage to U Javana/U Pandita/Mahasi Sayadaw to train me in Noting for basically nothing and he took almost 3 years of defiled abuse from my stupid brain/body just for...apparently no reason.  ;D

Ok. Here's an Ultra-simple Therevada model. I know people are too lazy often, on this forum to deal with the complications of the Lakhanas and 4 truths. I guess fractal math isn't for all Millineals. In any case, here's the model in "Leo speak" so ya'll can understand it:

1.) 1st Path (Sotapanna) -- The practice has seen one "Ontological Orgasm" with understanding.

2.) 2nd Path (Sakadagami) -- The practice sees many "Ontological Orgasms" during the course of an average day (rest of mortal life).

3.) 3rd Path (Anagami) -- The practice has an abiding Direct Consciousness of Emptiness at all times, and there is no doubt of this (rest of mortal life).

4.) 4th Path (Arahant) -- Ditto on 3, but less human delusion/ignorance/pattern remains, agency seen through, nonduality available. Equivalence of Zero and Absolute Infinity...etc.etc.etc.

5.) Beyond - Of course   ....as if Relativity is the only Infinite thing.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Sri Ramana Maharshi
typographical fuckup

[Natasha]

39 minutes ago, ThinAir said:

He defines enlightenment as "becoming conscious of whats actually true". Classic enlightenment referst to becoming conscious of the truth about Self and what Reality is. 

This realization does not necessarily bring change or transformation with it, it is simply knowing whats true

Agreed.

[Sri Ramana Maharshi]

1 minute ago, Natasha said:

Agreed.

Yup.

It's so "self-embarassing" to ponder how many times this stupid brain and eyes read that and just chose fantasy to chase over and over again.

Teachers can tell us "it's not elsewhere" or "other than *this*" a hundred times and it doesn't do what the 'encounter' does for Us.

All my Goodwill.

 

[zeroISinfinity]

Will Try to explain why People become monks post Enlightenment. 

See for me to type this to You I have to abandon TRUTH. I am basiclly returning to "hell" /small game life of a self/person. 

If I live in full TRUTH there is no world outside THIS awareness no self no others. 

So "enlightened" decide to become monks and to live Big game/heaven

In outside apparent world nothing changes.All stays the same. 

Huge sacrifice high reward. Once You know yourself fully trust me You Will not need LoA or occult stuff it will be joke. 

Edited August 22, 2019 by zeroISinfinity

[pluto]

Enlightenment is Absolute freedom of Mind/Ego. Enlightenment is Embodiment of the True Self. The Soul, The Spirit, The Higher self.

Whatever you wanna call it.

[Jkris]

@zeroISinfinity @zeroISinfinity The teaching emphasied is that don't go after siddhis-powers.Its illusion deceptive.Any time one may slip.Even the enlightened.Though ego is destroyed.Mind is functional.

People who fall are called Yoga-brashta.

The teaching is annihilation of karma's.Not accumulating new karma's.

Don't ask for anything - don't ask to remove suffering don't ask to remove disease don't ask for money power.Dont pray.

Accept whatever comes.

To end the cycle of  birth-death is the goal.

I was never interested in occult powers siddhis.But possible only in certain paths-traditions.Which is mostly kept secret and not available to the outside world.

With out proper absolute Guru bhakthi and absolute purity and total selflessness and no traces of arrogance such practices will be never instructed.Only a qualified disciple will receive.

I never believed Loa.

Black magic is further more dangerous - don't even try even with good intentions.

 

[zeroISinfinity]

I meant You are always Consciousness and everything That goes with it. All the positives all of them. 

So all these "powers" kinda sound silly. Not saying they are not possible they are, hell Yeah they are since Love is limitless. 

More God-like your intentions and creations are You Will access them easier. 

 

[Ones]

2 hours ago, Jkris said:

 

To end the cycle of  birth-death is the goal.

What makes you say this?

[Jkris]

@Ones Thats not important.Just keep it open.only certain paths will give those insights.

 

[Nahm]

On 8/21/2019 at 11:59 PM, Jkris said:

When I read traditional enlightenment books I see

Absence of anger,hatred,greed,lust,fear,shame,guilt,tension.

Peace,love,patience,tolerance etc.

Most of these books are by monks they don't interact with the world except teachings.They are not house holders,they don't earn - money is provided to them.

They don't work volunteers,workers do the work for them.

Does enlightenment bring about all these necessary changes in the mind,personality or conditionings ?

Careful with the thinking enlightenment is something / someone / some force, as if “it” could bring something. This can be used as a sneaky write off, which prevents the surrendering / detachment. It can be a trap of saying “when enlightenment happens”. 

Or

When these changes happen enlightenment is possible ?

 

Or the changes are about emotional mastery and that's all together different subject ?

But what about enlightened who are not monks but live as house holders ? Involved in job or business for living ?

How enlightened people interact with people especially in work,when orders received and orders given by them to subordinates and not able to complete on time ,deadlines are imposed ? - meaning if enlightened people are free from all turmoils,tension,anger in all situations,conditions ? Or they too act like other unrealised humans ?

Enlightenment is not an entity so “it” doesn’t “bring”. 

Yes, emotional mastery, but more clearly stated, emotional creation. Each of us are already creating our emotions, mastery is realizing this, and creating on purpose, & utilizing the emotions for the benefit of others. Carried out, no self / one self, yet ‘for another’,  this is Shaktipat. Obviously there are a few paradoxes realized along the way which make sense of some of this which linguistically alone does not make sense. There is no longer the experience which you are recognizing as ‘work’, ‘orders’, ‘subordinates’, deadlines’, ‘turmoils, tension, anger’, etc, etc. These are not actual in the first place, each one creates these, which is in large part what is realized, and therefore no longer experiential (in the light usage of the word). There’s no ‘acting’ anymore at all, as that is realized / seen through as well. 

Likewise, there are no ‘enlightened householders’, sans one’s own projection. This is a lack of understanding of one’s self, and of enlightenment, again, a projection onto another & the word as if it were a thing itself which comes in characters like ice cream comes in flavors. It’d be much more accurate to initially see that the house holding, business operating, and the relationships therein, are what one “utilizes” or rather eventually acknowledges as the very truest of teachings and teachers, which aid the enlightenment. It’d be far easier in a cave alone, yet surface level in comparison with daily interaction in the world, and specifically with people of all situations, predicaments, understandings, shortcoming, etc. In this same vein, no guru of thousands of years ago can teach like a two year old can, nor like the co creating of reality can. 

8 hours ago, Jkris said:

@zeroISinfinity @zeroISinfinity The teaching emphasied is that don't go after siddhis-powers.Its illusion deceptive.Any time one may slip.Even the enlightened.Though ego is destroyed.Mind is functional.

People who fall are called Yoga-brashta.

The teaching is annihilation of karma's.Not accumulating new karma's.

Don't ask for anything - don't ask to remove suffering don't ask to remove disease don't ask for money power.Dont pray.

Accept whatever comes.

To end the cycle of  birth-death is the goal.

I was never interested in occult powers siddhis.But possible only in certain paths-traditions.Which is mostly kept secret and not available to the outside world.

With out proper absolute Guru bhakthi and absolute purity and total selflessness and no traces of arrogance such practices will be never instructed.Only a qualified disciple will receive.

I never believed Loa.

Black magic is further more dangerous - don't even try even with good intentions.

 

If you truly take the complete ride, you’re going to naturally uncover many siddhis. It is not helpful to think of siddhis as powers. “Ending the cycle of birth & death” is ending your belief in this. It is already not actual, and therefore does not “end”. The ignorance “ends”. “Unbelief” of loa is denial of one’s own actual creating (and co creating).

 

[Jkris]

@Nahm ???

Thank you for your clarifications.

Some I think I get it.some defenitely only after realisation.Keeping it open which I am yet to realize.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Jkris