No advanced growth possible without psychedelics

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, see_on_see said:

It sounds like you only say it to be nice to those people that refuse to do them out of prejudice and fear, and to not make it sound like we need "drugs" to do this work. When in reality we are collectively in such a low state of consciousness that without psychedelics most of us are just gonna bang our heads against the wall for decades with little to show for it, and without even realizing we ain't getting anywhere.

 

 

[Phoenixx]

IMO, drugs don't reveal you things that you don't know, maybe you might notice things you didn't pay attention to before. I took LSD two times and every time I felt like a lab rat because I'm a hardcore determinist. Someone who's thinking about love and harmony, might feel like everything is love and harmony. In the end, the experience is highly subjective, just like reality and personal beliefs. So which truth do you want to know?

[Arhattobe]

If you are at a “low state of consciousness” as you guys put it. Your insights gained by psychedelics will be heavily distorted by your defiled intellect, made black and white and the lack of nuance within your perspective will lead to self destructive delusions.

So they won’t magically make up for the fact that your baseline is at a low level. You need to do the unsexy, unpsychedelic work regardless or you’ll get absolutely nowhere.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Arhattobe

[Leo Gura]

21 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

Your insights gained by psychedelics will be heavily distorted by your defiled intellect, made black and white and the lack of nuance within your perspective will lead to self destructive delusions.

That could happen. But the psychedelic helps to purify the mind, body, and heart. It's an incremental process of purification.

Self-deception is always a danger, psychedelic or no.

[Arhattobe]

@Leo Gura It is, I walked the path sober mostly but still fell into said traps but a lower baseline and more intense peaks and experiences can drastically increase the tendency to self delude. You shouldn’t get into this line of work until your at a certain level of maturity. Blasting yourself through the door might have consequences is my point.

[Leo Gura]

@Arhattobe And my point is that not having any mystical peaks at all is the greater danger for most people.

The biggest problem with people is that they are so lazy and complacent they have zero mystical experience. They do not even know this domain exists. So they have no will to meditate seriously.

I find that spiritually adept folks do not appreciate how unspiritual average folks are. Just keep that in mind. Because you walked this path sober you have an highly unusual degree of baseline awareness, wisdom, and motivation -- which 99% of people do not have.

[Arhattobe]

@Leo Gura Fair enough.

[Meditationdude]

@Leo Gura can you replace yoga with vigorous physical fitness? (sprints, high intensity interval training, cycling etc...) 

[Phoenixx]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Arhattobe And my point is that not having any mystical peaks at all is the greater danger for most people.

The biggest problem with people is that they are so lazy and complacent they have zero mystical experience. They do not even know this domain exists. So they have no will to meditate seriously.

I find that spiritually adept folks do not appreciate how unspiritual average folks are. Just keep that in mind. Because you walked this path sober you have an highly unusual degree of baseline awareness, wisdom, and motivation -- which 99% of people do not have.

Why there have to be any mystical peaks and not take the reality as it is? Some people are not inclined to be spiritual and have no desire for knowledge and reading books to reach at a certain 'level'. Aren't all of these human concepts of what is right or wrong? It's like we're projecting our expectations on how the reality should be. Those who seek different outcomes will eventually find them. Everybody is different.

[pluto]

@Meditationdude I've done many types of psychedelics, even growing up with AIWS and Schizophrenia, the Psychedelic state was normal for me. However, none of these even come close to the natural awakenings i have had with deep practice and spiritual inner-work.

Psychedelics can get you to some high states but a permanent shift in stabilized consciousness has always been from natural means.

There are no shortcuts to Enlightenment.

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Meditationdude said:

@Leo Gura can you replace yoga with vigorous physical fitness? (sprints, high intensity interval training, cycling etc...) 

Absolutely not.

We talk not talking about gym class yoga here. We are talking about meditative yoga. These are totally different things.

7 minutes ago, Phoenixx said:

Why there have to be any mystical peaks and not take the reality as it is? Some people are not inclined to be spiritual and have no desire for knowledge and reading books to reach at a certain 'level'. Aren't all of these human concepts of what is right or wrong? It's like we're projecting our expectations on how the reality should be. Those who seek different outcomes will eventually find them. Everybody is different.

No. This is delusion.

You need to access nondual states of consciousness to really grow. You have not even begun human growth until you've had your first mystical experience.

This doesn't mean that all spirituality boils down to chasing mystical experiences, but you need some first hand experience of samadhi states.

If you are not inclined to be spiritual then go watch some cartoons or whatever.

[Phoenixx]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No. This is delusion.

You need to access nondual states of consciousness to really grow. You have not even begun human growth until you've had your first mystical experience.

This doesn't mean that all spirituality boils down to chasing mystical experiences, but you need some first hand experience of samadhi states.

If you are not inclined to be spiritual then go watch some cartoons or whatever.

This seems to go hand in hand with the illusion of free will. It appears to me that we are what we are and there's no way of being. Most people cannot access higher states of consciousness because they are conditioned by the physical laws. So if they 'choose' to watch some cartoons instead of reading a book maybe it's because they are programmed doing so. There is no "they could have done it otherwise in the exact same circumstances".

Dualism is when we think in terms of what's right and what's wrong. In nature, there's no such thing as right or wrong.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Phoenixx

[Arhattobe]

 

20 minutes ago, Phoenixx said:

Why there have to be any mystical peaks and not take the reality as it is? Some people are not inclined to be spiritual and have no desire for knowledge and reading books to reach at a certain 'level'. Aren't all of these human concepts of what is right or wrong? It's like we're projecting our expectations on how the reality should be. Those who seek different outcomes will eventually find them. Everybody is different.

This is my issue with the modern non dual climate. Spiritual bypassing, talking about “accepting reality as it is” without realising that, that is not even an option when your baseline is steeped in ignorance.

What a defiled mind calls “accepting reality as it is” equates to a lack of genuine reflection, lack of self awareness, turning off and closing one’s eyes and refusing to acknowledge the possibility of growth, nuance and everything that this life is both about and can offer you. 

Just unsubstantial word salads that make people feel good.

[mandyjw]

4 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

 

This is my issue with the modern non dual climate. Spiritual bypassing, talking about “accepting reality as it is” without realising that, that is not even an option when your baseline is steeped in ignorance.

It's a necessary stage in development but if teachings that only go as high as that stage are worshiped, they will get stuck in that stage.

Reality is really fucking beautiful, heartbreakingly, ego destroyingly beautiful. Beautiful things are terrifying. 

 

[Phoenixx]

14 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

This is my issue with the modern non dual climate. Spiritual bypassing, talking about “accepting reality as it is” without realising that, that is not even an option when your baseline is steeped in ignorance.

What a defiled mind calls “accepting reality as it is” equates to a lack of genuine reflection, lack of self awareness, turning off and closing one’s eyes and refusing to acknowledge the possibility of growth, nuance and everything that this life is both about and can offer you. 

Just unsubstantial word salads that make people feel good.

There's no reason to try to change things that are out of your control. Reality is full of complexities and people who aren't spiritual have their own reason for being so. Think about a person who's suffering of schizophrenia or any other neurological disorders. You can't make everyone think or feel the same way you do. But you can manifest your being and live according to your own setup.

[Arhattobe]

@Phoenixx Don’t see what that has to do with my point. 

@mandyjw necessary or not it’s shortcomings should be discussed is my point and people should be more honest with themselves : ) 

[Phoenixx]

12 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

@Phoenixx Don’t see what that has to do with my point.

IMO spiritual people are not superior by any means to mediocre ones. Nobody should behave according to someone's own laws because every thing has its own unique place in this universe. It seems to me that you are judging others who are not like you as if they are inferior and lack something essential that everyone should have. But the reality is that some things cannot be changed no matter how much we would like to. That doesn't mean that we should suspend our senses and watch everything detached because there's nothing to do about it. I don't think that's even possible.

[Arhattobe]

@Phoenixx What you are saying is overly simplistic and doesn’t really make sense. Saying growth as a human being is possible is not judgemental. 

[Phoenixx]

5 hours ago, Arhattobe said:

@Phoenixx Saying growth as a human being is possible is not judgemental. 

Growth as a human being in which sense? Can a psychopath become spiritual?

[Leo Gura]

@Phoenixx The point of human life is become more conscious of what you are and what reality is.

This requires raising awareness of oneself through self-reflection, contemplation, inquiry, meditation, disciplined practices, etc.