Psychedelic Investigation Towards The Truth - A Question For Experienced Users

[ardacigin]

I'm not as experienced in psychedelics as many people in this forum. These questions are for experienced users:

- How do use the psychedelic insights - experiences to progress and dive deeper in sober meditation?

- Do you try to re-connect energetically and emotionally to a memorable psychedelic moment in meditation? Can you describe in detail how this occurred the last time you tried doing it?

- Did your sober meditation are easier and more fulfilling after psychedelic usage? Or does it facilitate impatience, boredom and distractions? I've got the sense that both can occur depending on the skill of the meditator.

- What is the 'key' experience leading up to awakening in a psychedelic session? What does the body and mind go through prior to awakening? What similarities are there in multiple awakening experiences accessed in psychedelics? Can we imitate them in a sober state? How effective was it in your experience?

- And lastly, what is the current status of Leo's 5 MEO-DMT experiment on himself? Does this substance have the potential for permanent transformation with regular usage and sober meditation? It is obvious from a temporary insight 'recognition' point of view, psychedelics are extremely efficient and effective. But from the insight embodiment, daily mindfulness and stable attention point of view, how much benefit one can get from 'only' psychedelics path?

Does it interfere with the brain in a way that certain value systems like discipline, diligence and effort go away too early before no-self is realized deeply on a semi-permanent intuitive level? Can this potentially get in the way of sober practice?

As a last note, I want to ask about this youtube channel called: Psyched Substance: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn8V3KNSgDr1Dai77_y8JrQ

Probably most psychedelic users know about Adam in this channel. He seems quite experienced in many psychedelics but he doesn't appear to have the attitude Leo talks about when approaching psychedelics.

He seems to use psychedelics as a party drug, not as a serious investigation towards the truth. (This is my impression of him). This leads me to think that only psychedelic paths can be dangerous without preliminary meditation, cognitive behavior therapy and psychology work.

He doesn't seem conscious of many things serious meditators are even though he is using advanced methods like LSD, DMT and many more. I think most people seem to underestimate and undervalue Leo's psychedelic insights. These are not easy to be conscious of even for experienced psychedelic users.

It seems to require a certain intent and attitude prior to tripping. The psychedelic path appears to have a mastery curve and should be respected by both non-psychedelic and psychedelic seekers. 

Anyways, thank you for all your answers. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by ardacigin

[Shadowraix]

11 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

How do use the psychedelic insights - experiences to progress and dive deeper in sober meditation?

Many of the psychedelic insights will be displayed through behavioral changes in how I interact with my experience, however the insight does provide consciousness expansion that does not depend on a clear and concise model which can overall naturally deepen the depths one can go with spiritual practices. Its like temporarily receiving 30 years worth of meditation and such an experience may propel your consciousness permanently by 1 year. Or maybe offer faster growth. 

14 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

Do you try to re-connect energetically and emotionally to a memorable psychedelic moment in meditation? Can you describe in detail how this occurred the last time you tried doing it?

Doing this is really nice when you catch yourself in unconscious behaviors. Experiences are much more life-changing than mental models. Many of the feelings and experiences of my major awakenings are etched into my memory and just thinking about them can almost mimic a psychedelic headspace. Remembering such experiences that heightened my awareness gives it a little extra push to be completely immersed in the now. I'm not concerned in thought, how long ive meditated, impatience, uncomfortable sensations, its quite blissful.

21 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

What is the 'key' experience leading up to awakening in a psychedelic session? What does the body and mind go through prior to awakening? What similarities are there in multiple awakening experiences accessed in psychedelics? Can we imitate them in a sober state? How effective was it in your experience?

Oh boy, this one is hard to put into words. I think I was a much harder one to push into awakening. I thought everybody was bonkers before it, they would just tell me to do more psychs and it confused me - I had already maybe 20 trips in with no major awakening. I just had nice visuals and a euphoric time. My mind was very locked down in rationality, logic, and materialism. You'll have a lot more luck if you meditate on psychs but I essentially brute forced my mind. I took a high enough dose where the awareness, all of the sensations basically shut down all of my ideology, assumptions, and thought about experience. It forced me into the now and not my ideas of it. Dropping all of this mind stuff was the core blocker to accessing deep insights. This experience was what led to a realization of oneness. My first ego death. Its bizarre but it happens with a *click* sudden shift. Its like realizing you left the stove on. It just hits you. I think very developed people can imitate the levels of awareness and and many insights, my memories can raise mine a little, but nothing ever brings it as high as a psychedelic will. Psychedelics act as an amplifier of sorts. So the higher in nondual consciousness you can achieve sober, the more the psychedelic experience can open for you. Nurturing the psychedelic insights is important though and should always be followed up on sober to properly integrate them. Lots of insights can be lost when you return back into dual consciousness. Happened to me with my first ego death into my next awakening.

32 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

And lastly, what is the current status of Leo's 5 MEO-DMT experiment on himself? Does this substance have the potential for permanent transformation with regular usage and sober meditation? It is obvious from a temporary insight 'recognition' point of view, psychedelics are extremely efficient and effective. But from the insight embodiment, daily mindfulness and stable attention point of view, how much benefit one can get from 'only' psychedelics path?

An only psychedelic path can bring you very far. I have not tried 5-MeO but I have tried NN-DMT and these substances are incredibly powerful. DMT blew everything out of the water for me and I didn't even experience the full depths of it. I didn't get any insights out of it, but I felt it start to bring me into nondual consciousness. It can definitely propel progress, but it won't give you permanent nondual consciousness sober. Achieving that where the insights are accessible to you 24/7 requires a big bulk of the work.

36 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

Does it interfere with the brain in a way that certain value systems like discipline, diligence and effort go away too early before no-self is realized deeply on a semi-permanent intuitive level? Can this potentially get in the way of sober practice?

Treat yourself and the path with respect instead of tripping every week and you'll be fine. If anything psychedelics is what increased those qualities in me because I actually understood not just mentally but in my being what meditation was for, and how everything I knew was a lie - this led me to put more effort into learning what all of this actually is.

 

I know I didn't answer every single one of your questions, but I tried my best to answer what I felt I could put into words.

[Forestluv]

@ardacigin Your questions seem to be through the lens of a human person. That there is an orientation toward what the person desires through goals and attainment. At the personal / human level, psychedelics certainly have practical value and can be a tool to assist one toward human interests and desires - including intellectual, emotional, spiritual desires - such as a desire/seeking to deepen one’s meditation or to improve attention. I’ve been to all sorts of realms and dimensions with psychedelics. Many aspects of imagination, time, attention, personality dynamics, intuition, beingness, the paranormal etc. have been revealed. Yet at a deeper level, it is much more fundamental. Eventually, it all gets transcended: you, meditation, sds, culadasa, Leo, actualized, TMI, humanness, psychedelics, psychedelic states, sober states . . 

Within the framework of “Psychedelic investigation toward the Truth”, there is an investigator that is investigating something with intention to move toward some destination called “Truth”. There’s nothing wrong with that, that’s the kinda stuff humans do and we’ve got to do something. Humans aren’t birds flying around the sky and building nests in trees. . . Yet there is a deeper/transcendent wokeness that psychedelics can help reveal. It is transcendent of the investigator. You aren’t investigating. “It” is investigating. There is transcendence of “toward”. The journey becomes the destination. Now. The idea of “Truth” is transcended. There is no Truth to investigate because the investigator and the investigations is itself Truth. 

From a personal perspective, psychedelic-related realizations and transformations begin to “stick”.

[ardacigin]

@Shadowraix Thank you for these answers. 

[ardacigin]

16 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

From a personal perspective, psychedelic-related realizations and transformations begin to “stick”.

How do these realizations begin to stick in a more permanent manner? This leftover mindset doesn't quite work for alcohol, for instance. We usually don't expect to maintain the alcoholic state after the substance leaves our body. The same appears to be true for psychedelics. Is the only permanent leftover from psychedelics the peak memory state (with its feelings and openness) and not the intuitive realizations themselves? Martin Ball has said that he had the permanent deal with 5 MEO DMT but recently he has been going through intense insomnia sessions and it appears the awakening was temporary, not a permanent realization. Ram Dass experimented with LSD on a daily basis and found out that it doesn't stick no matter how often or deep you go with a psychedelic. Who really has attained the permanent deal with psychedelics? I'm really curious.

[Rajaram]

I stumbled upon this recently, hope this helps the investigation too.

[ardacigin]

30 minutes ago, Rajaram said:

I stumbled upon this recently, hope this helps the investigation too.

Thank you. I'll watch it now.

[Forestluv]

21 hours ago, ardacigin said:

How do these realizations begin to stick in a more permanent manner? This leftover mindset doesn't quite work for alcohol, for instance. We usually don't expect to maintain the alcoholic state after the substance leaves our body. The same appears to be true for psychedelics. 

In a sense that is true. From the human/personal mindstate it appears as though there was an alteration of consciousness and then a return to "normal" consciousness. Yet there is also something else going on. There is a type of essence that can linger. Ime, as I cleared away background noise, this essence became purer and longer lasting. As well, there is easier access to it while sober. I can access essence/vibes/beingness while sober. In this sense, psychedelics are not just a chemical, like alcohol.

21 hours ago, ardacigin said:

Martin Ball has said that he had the permanent deal with 5 MEO DMT but recently he has been going through intense insomnia sessions and it appears the awakening was temporary, not a permanent realization. Ram Dass experimented with LSD on a daily basis and found out that it doesn't stick no matter how often or deep you go with a psychedelic. Who really has attained the permanent deal with psychedelics? I'm really curious.

To me, this a human construct of what awakening is. For example, "awakening is some thing that does not include insomnia. If a person has insomnia they are not awoken". We could add on lots of stuff to create a human imagination of what awakening is. At the level of the human, I think this has a lot of value and it is what humans commonly refer to as "enlightened" or "awake". Yet this is a shallow understanding of awakening. It goes deeper. It goes "prior" to any of these thoughts/images/concepts. It is prior to the person, prior to human. It transcends all that.

It would be the same as saying "I cannot be awake if Martin Ball has insomnia". This wouldn't make sense. What does Martin Ball's insomnia have to do with whether I am awake or not? This question seems absurd because I don't identify as being Martin Ball. He is a different person than me. My awakeness is not dependent on whether or not Martin Ball has insomnia or not. . . We can take this one step further. It would also be absurd to say "I cannot be awake if I have insomnia" (or any thing). What does "my" insomnia have to do with whether the transcendent I is awake or not? This would be absurd because the transcendent I does not identify as being the personal "me". It is transcendent of that. The awokeness of the transcendent I isn't dependent on "me" anymore than it is dependent upon you, Leo, Trump, or Leonardo DiCaprio. 

And Ram Dass didn’t experiment with LSD on a daily basis. No one does, due to the inherent high tolerance to psychedelics.

[ardacigin]

On 8/21/2019 at 1:18 AM, Serotoninluv said:

What does Martin Ball's insomnia have to do with whether I am awake or not? 

I apologize for the misunderstanding. I meant that he is suffering a lot due to his insomnia. He told that this insomnia is a living hell and he is not experiencing the inherent oneness going through this process. The awakening is not there at a fundamental level. Not because he has insomnia but because he is suffering as a separate ego entity. When push comes to shove, psychedelics (even the most powerful ones like 5 MEO DMT) show you how much manual work is still necessary for deep and permanent awakening.

It is my impression that psychedelics can make someone over-estimate their spiritual development. That is why 'only psychedelic' approach people like Martin Ball apply can be dangerous. And I can't understand this 'after effect' of psychedelics, what you might refer to as 'the permanent background effect'. The same effect occurs in deep meditation and samadhi states. It doesn't seem unique to psychedelics. That doesn't mean they are permanent. These are still conditioned by cause and effect. Actual awakening is supposed to transcend all that if it is a deep and permanent realization.

I'm still trying to understand what psychedelics can do that deep meditation can't. Yes, it is obvious that you go deeper MUCH FASTER. And that is great. But there must also be a negative side to this as the ego is demolished at a fundamental level too quickly without digestion. 

The dangers of meditation are that it requires time, skill, commitment, dedication and energy. It is a safe route but it also might take decades to get anywhere for most people. (Not everyone). The dangers of psychedelics are not quite well articulated in my opinion.

Yes, thanks to Leo's introduction, we are all aware of its amazing benefits. But just like his video on 'the dark side of meditation', Leo should do a video on 'the dark side of only psychedelic path', or something like 'The dangers of over-valuing psychedelics'. 

I think that too many people on this forum are relying too much on psychedelics for spiritual growth and slacking off in meditation. And I think it would be better to start this psychedelic investigation with a strong foundation in meditation. 

I want to see an adept meditator (someone who already lives in samadhi) to take these substances. Also, someone already said to be 'awake' like Peter Ralston or Eckhart Tolle. I think these substances are AMAZING. But they are used improperly and immaturely by most people.

What do you think about this?

 

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by ardacigin

[Jordan94]

21 hours ago, ardacigin said:

I want to see an adept meditator (someone who already lives in samadhi) to take these substances.

@winterknight might be able to talk about that

I don't know if you already read some of his thread, but he seems fairly advanced and an adept meditator and enlightened, and he has experience with psychedelics as well

From what I understood in his most recent posts in his thread, it seems like he was more on the side of being careful of not over-estimating psychedelics as well and that it will be dangerous (or even cannot work) as an only path

[Forestluv]

On 8/22/2019 at 6:14 AM, ardacigin said:

I apologize for the misunderstanding. I meant that he is suffering a lot due to his insomnia. He told that this insomnia is a living hell and he is not experiencing the inherent oneness going through this process. The awakening is not there at a fundamental level. Not because he has insomnia but because he is suffering as a separate ego entity. When push comes to shove, psychedelics (even the most powerful ones like 5 MEO DMT) show you how much manual work is still necessary for deep and permanent awakening.

This is a conditional, personal, human construct of awakening. It is not Ablsolute Awakening. A personal human construct of awakening as practical value in being human, yet it is still a relative human construct.

When you say "because he is suffering as a separate ego entity", you have created the same separate ego entity as you are pointing to. You have created an entity called "Martin Ball" that is separate from you and that there are appearances in this separate entity that disqualifies it from being awakened. Within a personal/human construct, that has value and I often use that construct in my life. Yet that aint IT.

As well, when you say "psychedelics show you how much manual work is still necessary for deep and permanent awakening" I would agree with that for awakening. Yet not for Awakening, which is not dependent on human conditions. 

On 8/22/2019 at 6:14 AM, ardacigin said:

It is my impression that psychedelics can make someone over-estimate their spiritual development. 

From a relative, personal human perspective - I agree. If we create a construct of what spiritual development and progress is to a human - there would be many different constructs and no one would agree on all components - not even the most spiritually "advanced" practioners. This is inherent to be human in a relative world.

On 8/22/2019 at 6:14 AM, ardacigin said:

And I can't understand this 'after effect' of psychedelics, what you might refer to as 'the permanent background effect'. The same effect occurs in deep meditation and samadhi states. It doesn't seem unique to psychedelics. That doesn't mean they are permanent. These are still conditioned by cause and effect. 

First, you are creating a distinction in which there is a "psychedelic state" and a "sober state". You are giving value to the "sober state" as being the default state of reality and a "psychedelic state" is an altered state of reality. From this mindset, one will see psychedelics as an altered state in which one temporarily steps out of the default sober state to gain insights. Then once returning to the sober state, the sober mind will ask "what did we get from the psychedelic state that applies and benefits the sober state? Is this application/benefit permanent"?

This is a construct you have created. This is the most common perspective because the mind has been conditioned to create a reality that it can make sense of and gives it grounding and practicality for survival. As well, it is reinforced in society. You could also see the psychedelic state as being equivalent to the sober state - yet this is very difficult for a mind to do.

This isn't just relevant to psychedelics - it is relevant to all different mind states. One will be contracted within a value dynamic until this is realized.

On 8/22/2019 at 6:14 AM, ardacigin said:

Actual awakening is supposed to transcend all that if it is a deep and permanent realization.

 Yes, and it also transcends your entire personal/human construct of what awakening is. You are speaking of awakening, not Awakening.

On 8/22/2019 at 6:14 AM, ardacigin said:

I'm still trying to understand what psychedelics can do that deep meditation can't. Yes, it is obvious that you go deeper MUCH FASTER. And that is great. But there must also be a negative side to this as the ego is demolished at a fundamental level too quickly without digestion. 

Yes, at the human level I would agree. I'm am a strong advocate for research in psychedelics and training practioners who use psychedelics for spiritual and therapeutic purposes. For example, I would like to see new infrastructure built for psychedelic-therapy - in which health care practitioners go through extensive training. 100 years from now, I think humans will cringe about how psychedelics were used. For example, desperate people suffering with mental conditions such as PTSD ordering psychedelics online and trying to self-medicate without knowledge and experience of psychedelics. I think in the future, we will be much more advanced. Someone with PTSD will be able to walk into a clinic for free and receive quality psychedelic therapy from a highly trained practitioner.

On 8/22/2019 at 6:14 AM, ardacigin said:

I think that too many people on this forum are relying too much on psychedelics for spiritual growth and slacking off in meditation. And I think it would be better to start this psychedelic investigation with a strong foundation in meditation. 

I agree. Psychedelic revelations will be contextualized at the baseline conscious level of the user. I think having a basic foundation of maturity, development and stability is helpful. 

On 8/22/2019 at 6:14 AM, ardacigin said:

I want to see an adept meditator (someone who already lives in samadhi) to take these substances. Also, someone already said to be 'awake' like Peter Ralston or Eckhart Tolle. 

I think that would be interesting as well.

[Enlightenment]

26 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

 

 

 

 

On 8/22/2019 at 0:14 PM, ardacigin said:

I want to see an adept meditator (someone who already lives in samadhi) to take these substances. Also, someone already said to be 'awake' like Peter Ralston or Eckhart Tolle. 

I think that would be interesting as well.

I was already awake (with weak concentration skills) when I first tried a high dose of DPT and I can tell you it was completely beyond normal awakening, not even close. I can guarantee you if Eckhart Tolle would try a breakthrough dose of 5-MeO or DPT he would be surprised as fuck

[Nahm]

On 8/19/2019 at 8:38 AM, ardacigin said:

- How do you use the psychedelic insights - experiences to progress and dive deeper in sober meditation?

You don’t. You let them go as quickly as they come. Insight collection is blockage creation. You’d be trading Being, Insighfull, for a hand full of yesterday’s beans. They’ll help you shed many of your other beliefs about progressing. 

- Do you try to re-connect energetically and emotionally to a memorable psychedelic moment in meditation? Can you describe in detail how this occurred the last time you tried doing it?

I would reconsider listening any further to whoever is telling you these things about trying to do things in meditation, about re-connecting energetically, etc. Meditation is presence now. Not memories, thought stories of energy, etc.     Being. Nothing. 

- Did your sober meditation are easier and more fulfilling after psychedelic usage? Or does it facilitate impatience, boredom and distractions? I've got the sense that both can occur depending on the skill of the meditator.

If you are not finding it fulfilling, reconsider what it is you are doing. Start with no longer trying to create thought stories about a past. Meditation is for dropping beliefs, not adding them. Psychedelics will help you drop beliefs about “your skills”, etc.  Highly useful tools. They’ll basically force letting go, or you’ll suffer greatly. Maybe both. It’d be ideal to do some inspection of your beliefs prior to the trip. It’s much easier on both accounts. 

- What is the 'key' experience leading up to awakening in a psychedelic session?

Having inspected your beliefs (primarily identity & reality related) and having already dropped them. This makes for a smoother trip to the extent you have done the work. 

And or 

Having put someone else ahead of yourself, genuinely. I am referring to your sneaky self. 

What does the body and mind go through prior to awakening?

Shloads of suffering typically. 

What similarities are there in multiple awakening experiences accessed in psychedelics?

You. Awareness. Being. 

Can we imitate them in a sober state?

You’d have an imitation. 

How effective was it in your experience?

Rips away you falsities, your beliefs, your “identity”. Everyone is a one off in terms of to what degree and how so. 

He seems to use psychedelics as a party drug, not as a serious investigation towards the truth. (This is my impression of him). This leads me to think that only psychedelic paths can be dangerous without preliminary meditation, cognitive behavior therapy and psychology work.

Those are all practices of inspection, to rid you of falsities, beliefs, false identity created.

He doesn't seem conscious of many things serious meditators are even though he is using advanced methods like LSD, DMT and many more. I think most people seem to underestimate and undervalue Leo's psychedelic insights. These are not easy to be conscious of even for experienced psychedelic users.

They are if you aren’t holding beliefs, which means realizing you are the sneakiest human being that has ever set foot on earth. Yep, you. 

Anyways, thank you for all your answers. 

Good. Luck. ?♥️

 

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Enlightenment said:

I was already awake (with weak concentration skills) when I first tried a high dose of DPT and I can tell you it was completely beyond normal awakening, not even close. I can guarantee you if Eckhart Tolle would try a breakthrough dose of 5-MeO or DPT he would be surprised as fuck

Similar here. I did over 20 years of mediation without any substances. More was revealed in a 6 hr. trip than the previous 20+ years. Yet, I think it helped to have had that prior grounding.