Leo has surface-level knowledge about modern feminism(maybe)

[Surfingthewave]

35 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I just use the categories of “masculine” and “feminine” for convenience and because there is social constructs of masculine and feminine that have influence in society.

There we go! Convenience and social constructs. Is that because we want to be accepted by the "norm"? 

 

35 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

 

In the USA - of the traits you listed above -  “supportive” would be considered a “feminine” trait that is believed to be possessed more by women than men. Women may be encouraged, expected and allowed to be supportive. It has a submissive tinge to it. For example, I woman that is supportive of her husband when he screws up. For men, if they were supportive in a way that looked submissive, they would be considered weak by many people and judged harshly. Male leaders are often oriented toward “winning” against another. 

Are women expected to be supportive or again is this a social construct? In work my male manager is very supportive, I've had female managers who weren't supportive so I left (bad leadership quality). You can also "win" without being competitive. 

 

35 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I  was supposed to have certain male traits and behave a certain way and she was supposed to have female traits and behave a certain way. To me it was silly and I couldn’t operate that way.

Well done. It's time to shine a light on these gender roles. 

I realise you are having multiple debates here, we clearly need to have more of these as people feel strongly and there appears to be wildly differing opinions. I get a sense Leo isn't going to do a vid on modern feminism any time soon.... I wonder why 

@Shadowraix This shows real growth as you have listened. I know I can struggle to do this especially when there are points made I find inexcusable to make but hey, I'm learning too! 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Surfingthewave

[Leo Gura]

Seriously contemplate: What is the value of feminism? Why did this social movement arise? What legitimate problems has it addressed and what legitimate problems is it still addressing?

Get curious about studying it. Seek to understand it.

This will put you in the right frame of mind.

Understand that women are not asking for more rights. They are asking for decent and fair treatment and for respect of the feminine way of life.

This is not merely an issue of strictly equal legal rights. This is an issue of an under-representation of feminine values in mainstream culture and centers of power. Women have a unique way of experiencing the world and dealing with problems. As men, and as a hyper-macho society, we can benefit greatly from adopting some of those ways. All without becoming emasculated. We can benefit a lot from feminine leaders. Not just women who act like cold bossy men. But truly feminine leadership style.

This is in fact one of the easiest ways to reduce violence around the world: put more women in charge.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, smurf88 said:

How are you to affect systemic change at anything but the individual level?

That is a great question! Explore that. . . What are systems? Why is a collective consciousness? How do individual consciousness and collective consciousness inter-related? How do external extrinsic factors affect the the individual intrinsically? How do I distinguish between internal and external? What are the relationships between the two.

A simple example are neurotransmitters. One intuitively knows that there internal neurotransmitters their brain chemistry and how they think and feel. For some contracted in a separate individual consciousness, they will see this brain activity as “me” and internally controlled and that there is a separate outside world. Yet those external people are neurotransmitters to you. Some people are dopamine neurotransmitters, others are serotonin , others are gaba, cortisol etc. They are altering your brain chemistry just like your internal neurotransmitters are. This is one small step in becoming aware of collective consciousness. Yet it can be threatening to an ego and there may be resistance.

1 hour ago, smurf88 said:

Performance varies according to the job function. A performant Amazon delivery driver delivers more packages than the average. A performant coder delivers more features, in less time, with fewer bugs than the average. A person who cannot perform a job function properly, or does so too slowly, is not performant. In other words, a person who causes the company to lose money rather than creating a profit.

I am not saying that your definitions of merit and performance are incorrect. I think they have a lot of value. Rather, notice how you are presenting these definitions as if they are objective universal truths. Someone may agree with your criteria, someone else may agree with part of your criteria and add some new stuff, another person may disagree and scrap it and come up with new criteria of merit and performance. It’s relative. People with influence will want to control the definitions of terms like “merit”, “qualified”, “racism”, “masculinity”, “sexism”, “sexual harassment” etc. This is part of the problem with disproportionate unequal power and representation. If all the upper administrators and Board of trustees at a University are middle age white men that will have an effect. And if there has been a 200 year history of the University being run by middle age white men, that will have an affect. This will effect each middle-age white male and as a group of middle-age white males. That history will have an infrastructure still present and the group dynamics of an all middle age white male administration will have a particular group dynamic. If you change the composition from 100% white male to 50% male, 50% female and 30% minority. That group dynamic WILL be different. The energy and discussions will be VERY different in meetings. Not just individuals. The GROUP dynamics have changed. All the individuals are neurotransmitters to each other, each bringing in their own life history, experience and views as a male, female, white or minority. 

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, Surfingthewave said:

Are women expected to be supportive or again is this a social construct? In work my male manager is very supportive, I've had female managers who weren't supportive so I left (bad leadership quality). You can also "win" without being competitive. 

I would say these are social constructs that lead to expectation, yet they are not hard boundaries and the boundaries are breaking down through times. As you’ve said, some men can be supportive and some women unsupportive.

I think a more obvious example would be with empathy. Women are often seen as being more empathetic and able to be open about their feelings and connect with others. Men with these traits may be seen as being emasculated.

 

[Shadowraix]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Understand that women are not asking for more rights. They are asking for decent and fair treatment and for respect of the feminine way of life.

Wow. This clicks like a puzzle piece. 

I already knew we are a heavily masculine based society and that we needed more feminine implemented, but connecting that to feminism never occurred to me.

[Surfingthewave]

Women are asking not to be silenced. 

[Ibn Sina]

Here is my new view about feminism which is mainly influenced by Shadowraix's post. I also realized what my problem was.
I conflated the natural advantages of women (like having power of accusation , etc) with feminism, and I thought- they have these advantages (which is natural advantages which  men also have, eg- no periods /pregnancy, not being judged by looks) and thought wanting  further more with feminism is just for more power because they are already at advantage (but it's just natural advantage given by nature, yes they do have them, but still artificial injustices like wage gap etc is pushed upon them and feminism is about remedying that)

Feminism can have a bad effect on men. (Again, I don't want a knee jerk reaction. Shadowraix also agrees that feminism can have it's dark side, my life experience (false accusation, boys getting punished in school girls not) confirms it, I know many MGTOW people who suffered due to getting their 50% of their wealth lopped off. So I am not going to say feminism has 0 bad effect on men. )

 

Feminism can have bad effect on men, but still it doesn’t mean that feminism is wrong just because unluckily some men get the bad side of feminism, it is not as bad as I used to think or as bad as what women have. Yes, it can have it’s dark side, but still it is important to bring women up. Yes, there might be some suffering in some  men due to unluck and suffering due to the dark side of feminism, but still those suffering are not as bad as the pain of women, and not as frequent and prevalent as in women. Besides the case of unlucky MGTOW or falsely accused men , to a large extent nothing is stopping men from succeeding and living their life to the fullest.

Feminism has never tried to undermine men.

  Feminisim is not about undermining men. Men getting accused , is not due to feminism, it is life. Women attracting mates easily is not due to feminism, it is life. . Yes women have those advantages, but still their rights are undermined in a legal context, artificial injustices is put upon them , and this is the problem. Besides, men also have natural advantages, it’s just a distribution of natural advantages of being born as a man or a woman.

Being masculine is  about working yourself up without pushing women down ,not being afraid of 
getting empowered by women .

Again, the thing is whether feminism is pushing men down or not. 50% wealth? Nuptial. Accusations? It is life, not feminism. Jobs for women? May go under discrimination. And it is temporary.

Your goal is , to be a man. To never face any injustices due to feminism. To make sure you are not undermined due to feminism. And just work hard and attain your goals. As long as you have kept the dark side of feminism at bay, you can help women get up too, that is real masculinity.

Surely there are toxic women who can use their advantages to attack men, and men may inturn start to think of feminism as bad. The problem arises because of connecting toxic women with feminism.  Yes, there are toxic women, yes women can have natural advantages like being able to attract mates more easily then men of same level of attractiveness (my problem was not resentment due to this, but my problem was women having this  advantage and still wanting femininism. I know now where my mistake is. My problem was not never talking to women, but not knowing the artificial injustices pushed upon women in job markets, senates etc etc)  can do or easily falsely accusing men and destroying his life, but still it has nothing to do with feminism.  Even if women can have those natural advantages over men but it is not feminism, it is nature, it is life, it’s like men have the advantage of not getting pregnant, can protect themselves, don’t get judged on their looks, don’t get periods etc some men are unfairly more attractive then others , it’s the same with women, life is not fair some have it better than others, men also have advantages over women, women have some natural advantages over men, but still in many contexts women are deprived of rights and feminism is about addressing that. It has nothing to do with natural advantages. Which both men and women have. Feminism is not about underming men (50% property (nuptials, men have choice to not marry), false accusation (it’s not feminism but the vulnerability of women just like little kids have power in their accusation) , sucking up male jobs (which  as shadowraix has said is wrong but its just to give women a push).

Edited August 17, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Aeris]

4 hours ago, Ibn Sina said:

Here is my new view about feminism which is mainly influenced by Shadowraix's post. I also realized what my problem was.
I conflated the natural advantages of women (like having power of accusation , etc) with feminism, and I thought- they have these advantages (which is natural advantages which  men also have, eg- no periods /pregnancy, not being judged by looks) and thought wanting  further more with feminism is just for more power because they are already at advantage (but it's just natural advantage given by nature, yes they do have them, but still artificial injustices like wage gap etc is pushed upon them and feminism is about remedying that)

Feminism can have a bad effect on men. (Again, I don't want a knee jerk reaction. Shadowraix also agrees that feminism can have it's dark side, my life experience (false accusation, boys getting punished in school girls not) confirms it, I know many MGTOW people who suffered due to getting their 50% of their wealth lopped off. So I am not going to say feminism has 0 bad effect on men. )

 

Feminism can have bad effect on men, but still it doesn’t mean that feminism is wrong just because unluckily some men get the bad side of feminism, it is not as bad as I used to think or as bad as what women have. Yes, it can have it’s dark side, but still it is important to bring women up. Yes, there might be some suffering in some  men due to unluck and suffering due to the dark side of feminism, but still those suffering are not as bad as the pain of women, and not as frequent and prevalent as in women. Besides the case of unlucky MGTOW or falsely accused men , to a large extent nothing is stopping men from succeeding and living their life to the fullest.

Feminism has never tried to undermine men.

  Feminisim is not about undermining men. Men getting accused , is not due to feminism, it is life. Women attracting mates easily is not due to feminism, it is life. . Yes women have those advantages, but still their rights are undermined in a legal context, artificial injustices is put upon them , and this is the problem. Besides, men also have natural advantages, it’s just a distribution of natural advantages of being born as a man or a woman.

Being masculine is  about working yourself up without pushing women down ,not being afraid of 
getting empowered by women .

Again, the thing is whether feminism is pushing men down or not. 50% wealth? Nuptial. Accusations? It is life, not feminism. Jobs for women? May go under discrimination. And it is temporary.

Your goal is , to be a man. To never face any injustices due to feminism. To make sure you are not undermined due to feminism. And just work hard and attain your goals. As long as you have kept the dark side of feminism at bay, you can help women get up too, that is real masculinity.

Surely there are toxic women who can use their advantages to attack men, and men may inturn start to think of feminism as bad. The problem arises because of connecting toxic women with feminism.  Yes, there are toxic women, yes women can have natural advantages like being able to attract mates more easily then men of same level of attractiveness (my problem was not resentment due to this, but my problem was women having this  advantage and still wanting femininism. I know now where my mistake is. My problem was not never talking to women, but not knowing the artificial injustices pushed upon women in job markets, senates etc etc)  can do or easily falsely accusing men and destroying his life, but still it has nothing to do with feminism.  Even if women can have those natural advantages over men but it is not feminism, it is nature, it is life, it’s like men have the advantage of not getting pregnant, can protect themselves, don’t get judged on their looks, don’t get periods etc some men are unfairly more attractive then others , it’s the same with women, life is not fair some have it better than others, men also have advantages over women, women have some natural advantages over men, but still in many contexts women are deprived of rights and feminism is about addressing that. It has nothing to do with natural advantages. Which both men and women have. Feminism is not about underming men (50% property (nuptials, men have choice to not marry), false accusation (it’s not feminism but the vulnerability of women just like little kids have power in their accusation) , sucking up male jobs (which  as shadowraix has said is wrong but its just to give women a push).

@Ibn Sina well now it looks nuanced and more about différent ideas, more solutions driven. After this we can talk with a larger view of the table - something less 'ego focused'.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Aeris

[Spiral]

I consider “the gender wars” to be a game for people who do not understand the other side . On both sides but very often guys, who make assumptions, that often just is a misunderstanding. After which they argue against something no one had any interest in to begin with.

Statements like “Men rape!” And then guys get upset because all guys don’t rape and that statement implies that. Is a bad choice of words? Sure but not something worth arguing and wasting time on.

That being said feminism is often so green and idealistic it’s silly and without system thinking goes nowhere.

[tenta]

One thing I've noticed is how he is self biased against MRAs or whoever argues female privilege exists, he doesn't acknowledge that both men and women have it hard when it comes to finding a long term partner who has a good personality, while he did admit that females have it easier when it comes to getting sex, and how the reason women aren't finding men who have good personalities is that they'd rather be with narcissists or even child rapists (as confirmed by tinder experiments) than 

Also nothing about the privileges women have in academia where they're out performing men in every field in high school and elementary school, nor other privileges like this, and also how 80% of suicides are men

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1gRNv561CE

Note how the best example is real life direct experiences of how ugly men are disadvantaged and ways in which women are privileged, so a biased mind will always be able to wiggle it's way out of admitting female privilege only from statistics and data, without first having seen direct examples

[Robi Steel]

 

 

 

 

On 16.8.2019 at 2:08 PM, Leo Gura said:

Please tell us how many books on feminism you've read.

I did not, Im sry. I hope you still consider some of my points reasonably. Most of them are based on my real-life experiences and intuitions. 

 

 

 

 

On 16.8.2019 at 2:08 PM, Leo Gura said:

This is a legit problem. But it has little to do with feminism.

You could blame video games. Video games certainly have a lot more to do with it than feminism. Why don't you target video games instead?

Video games are a nice retreating place for a child when everything else doesnt work out. Video games are a nice place to sent off your son when you're constantly at work and dont have the energy to play with him because youve been working all day. Video games are a nice place to keep hanging when nobody is teaching you duties/responsibility/social norms because your parents think that is all traditional and has no value for the child at all. All of the boys that I knew in school came into contact with video games, you know which ones became nerds and gamers? The ones with the shitty parenting, the ones that needed a world that actually worked for them. And there alot of shitty parenting at the moment for boys and girls.

 

 

 

 

On 16.8.2019 at 2:08 PM, Leo Gura said:

This is false. This is exactly the kind of ideology that toxic masculinity promotes to avoid dealing with the root issue. Notice the blaming attitude here.

I kinda made an absolutist statement there and I should say that most women have real reasons to advocate for equality. Im not gonna avoid facing my own feminine site and becoming more feminine by retreating into some boys club. Sometimes I just need a place where I can have fun with my boys, where we can make inappropriate jokes, be politically incorrect, be rough, be tough, be competitive. 

That isnt enabling any toxic masculinity, that is actually helping me pretty goodly containing that site of me around other people where it would be out of place nowadays. Men need to control the dragon that is inside of them and the only way to do that is to acknowledge that there is a dragon and actually looking what that dragon looks like and how to beast it. Men need to be taught about their masculine nature first before they can be softened. 

A good way to create alot of immature, juvenile men who think gangster-rap is oh-so-cool is to completely deny their masculine nature, pretend like its a disease and toxic. Pretend like theres nothing even different between him and a girl. Pretend like there are only bad sides to being tough, leading and dominant. Throughout his entire childhood. 

What happens to these confused young boys? Because they were never taught how to handle the beast of masculinity, its gonna come bubbling up to the surface earlier or later. They will turn into dangerous people, because they were never told about that they can be dangerous. They turn into the men of 4chan, PUAs, MGTOW, etc. That is where actual toxic masculinity comes from, men not knowing themselves. 

 

 

 

 

2

On 16.8.2019 at 2:08 PM, Leo Gura said:

Traditional roles were not erased by feminists. Those traditional roles were never sustainable to begin with because they were built upon collective mental fictions and norms. Those norms had to break down with rise of various technological advancements.

You also underestimate how stiffing and limiting those roles were. People got sick of fitting into such narrow and artificial roles.

Society was never going to stay at Spiral Dynamics stage Blue, nor will it ever go back to those roles. Evolution marches forward.

 

I know those roles were stifling. God, im not talking about going back to stage blue, dont be so black and white, seriously dude. Its not either "Abondan everything traditional" against "Going back to spiral dynamics stage blue". 

There is obviously a lot of information about us as a species in looking at how our gender roles developed. Obviously, we were made a certain way to fit different roles in the play of survival. And of course should technology give now everyone the freedom to take on the role they desire. 

What does this mean?  It means that traditional roles are a product of evolution which lasted millions and billions of years and liberation is a product of evolution that lasted some hundred years. Yes, men and woman are gonna become more the same. They are gonna overlap more.  There have always been women who fit a leader position better than a man, there have always been men who fit a caring position better than a woman. These people can now actualize themselves, thats wonderful

 

But what about the majority or tendency of men and women to be different. Its gonna be stable at least for some time. It is almost undeniable that women seem to be people-oriented and men tend to be things-oriented in way that is inherent. Inherently different means that there is something ingrained in our minds that just alters our perception. So many women will enjoy family, friends and emotions more than men and they will admit to this if you ask them.

But what is our society doing at the moment to fix the problem of gender roles, it is proposing more and more that every behavior which is opposite to traditional gender roles must be automatically good. Id say, this setting many people up against themselves.

Women are pushed to have bigger and bigger careers so they  have less and less time with their kids

Women are demonized for not working and wanting a traditional lifestyle

Parenting is swept under the rug with daycare centers

Women are told to chase money and success which backfires for alot of women who have a natural tendency for people (Realizing how much time you wasted on something, you find out, you dont actually care about).

What worse than limiting dogmatically enforced gender roles, limiting dogmatically enforced gender anti-roles that dont even match the biological make-up of most people.

 

 

 

 

2

On 16.8.2019 at 2:08 PM, Leo Gura said:

If you really care about unity, then stop parroting this ideology and go read some books on feminism with an open mind.

You need to step outside your male perspective and look at society from the POV of women. Which is precisely what you won't want to do. And this is what's creating your perceived division. If you would see the world from the POV of women, your projection of division would cease and unity would result. You would also become happier and you'd be more successful with relating to women.

Remember, women in America could not have a line of credit from the bank until the 1970's. Just think about that!

Stop being so goddamned self-centered. The world doesn't revolve around you.

I disagree Leo, I actually like chilling with girls more than with boys and I always had a huge feminine site that I was always proud of. My ideal way of being is sensitive and peaceful but still my male friends showed me a lot that only boys can teach you. I actually talked with a lot of girls about this topic in particular, some of them being wholehearted feminists. But still, I would come to a lot of agreements with them and you would be suprised how many girls are also critical of feminism and how many feel that the mainstream version of feminism does not fit their description and feeling of truly feminine values and efforts.

When I say to a girl that she has got to look out for how she spends the majority of her life and should be careful about just following the crowd or doing what youre told, its not because I want to reinforce the patriarchal norm or because it suits me as a man when she decides to be a stay-at-home mum, its because I can tell her an important piece of information that could be key to her happiness later in life.

I know this because my mom tells me endless stories of her coworkers who all regret spending less time with their children now that they are 40 or 50 years old. They just weren't told that that could be the thing missing in their life, they were after a dead-end job that suddenly doesnt mean anything anymore. I think there are many people who fall prey to "let's do everything the other way around, just because" and suffer as a consequence and dont find to themselves.

Feminist talking points and policies need to be checked meticulously. Just because feminism goes in the right direction doesnt mean it´s always good. It can go 180 just as everything else.

Sup

 

 

[Shadowraix]

@Robi Steel What do they think mainstream feminism is? The media amplifies the radicalists, but it is far from what mainstream feminism is. This is what I was talking about earlier, perceptions get very warped because the minority happens to be the most vocal ones.

If anything, its a sign we need to be more proactive about what actual support of feminist ideas look like and not the toxic version spun off by extremely damaged people who can't maintain a conversation without blowing up.

[TheAlchemist]

There are shadow aspects to both the masculine and the feminine. Just because some shadow aspects of the feminine (along with positive aspects) are surfacing, it doesn't mean that it is not exposing the shadow aspects of masculinity that have been running rampant for most of human history. That being said, the pendulum often tends to swing too far to the other side on these types of things, but over time it seems to stabilise closer and closer to truth.