Leo has surface-level knowledge about modern feminism(maybe)

[Robi Steel]

I think alot of people on here are pretty aware and think through the stuff that leo says. Thats, why it shouldnt be a problem to honestly address some attitudes that Leo has that I think, are really damaging to young men. 

Leo, just because your past includes getting away from the image of the nerd and the 4chan troll, doesnt mean you have to constantly demonize them and act as like they are just pathetic man-children who cant get their act together. There is a real reason more and more men feel disenfranchised and completely helpless. Many of them were never given any help and even told the opposite of what is true about girls. Many of them did not grow up with a father and therefore suffer under completely one-sided, overly sensitive and overly nurturing parenting. They were given no proper tools whatsoever to be a successful man, I dont blame them for feeling anger. They have no connections to society whatsoever, thats why they dont care to shoot it up. 

I think men and women always had it shitty. The only reason we called it "emancipation of women" is because we defined the good life by male standarts (pretty sexist). I dont think men really have been emancipated, especially not when I see the heavy double standarts everywhere. 

Majority of CEOs male (problem) vs. majority of coal miners male (not a problem)

Men only care about looks (problem) vs. women only care about money (not a problem)

Sport is male-dominated (problem) vs. Caregivers are female dominated (not a problem)

Not only do feminists try to destroy any kind of positive male image or positive male space, it is also obvious that this whole thing is not about equality anymore. Equality has become a tool for many womens egotism. One day "Yes, women are so beautiful and we need to celebrate femininity!" the other day "Why do care so much about treating girls and boys different, for me, everybody is just human and should be raised the same(assuming that her feminine way of upbringing is the human way)" . This is both said by feminists in the name of equality but it clearly has a double standart when it comes to masculinity and why it is good and should be celebrated. Then suddenly, traditional roles should be abandoned and are a thing of the past even though they will clearly always be a part of our behavior as it is highly influenced by our biological setup.

I know many women who have a good heart and dont intent to supress a positive male image but they just dont know any better. 

If nothing is done, women and men will drift further apart which is bad because we want to aim towards unity, especially masculine and feminine need to come together because they are by nature intended to be complimentary and two sides of the same coin. Gender politics should not drive men and women further apart and should solely focus and bringing stuff together and working out differences which have to be accepted beforehand. 

Where men understand women and where women understand men (first one is rare at the moment as well as the second one)

I hope this doesnt come about as too anti-feminist. I want to be a feminist, it just that many people who call themselves feminists at the moment often miss the mark in how they could actually help women become stronger, actually independent, actually grounded in themselves, actually knowledgeable and equal to men. 

Equal but different but together as one the same. 

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Robi Steel

[Surfingthewave]

2 hours ago, Robi Steel said:

Many of them did not grow up with a father and therefore suffer under completely one-sided, overly sensitive and overly nurturing parenting. They were given no proper tools whatsoever to be a successful man, I dont blame them for feeling anger. 

Majority of CEOs male (problem) vs. majority of coal miners male (not a problem)

Men only care about looks (problem) vs. women only care about money (not a problem)

Not only do feminists try to destroy any kind of positive male image or positive male space, it is also obvious that this whole thing is not about equality anymore. Equality has become a tool for many womens egotism. 

I hope this doesnt come about as too anti-feminist. 

Equal but different but together as one the same. 

What are the proper tools to be a successful man? Why would a child's upbringing be overly sensitive if the child was raised without a father? 

There are a lot of assumptions in your thread, they are not anti femininst, the fact that you are making these points makes this so. Your points about masculinity and femininity are quite binary however , your stats might be near the mark but I'm just interested in how you've formed your ideas, particularly on the above and what positive male images and spaces are. 

 

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Robi Steel said:

I think alot of people on here are pretty aware and think through the stuff that leo says. Thats, why it shouldnt be a problem to honestly address some attitudes that Leo has that I think, are really damaging to young men. 

Please tell us how many books on feminism you've read.

Quote

Leo, just because your past includes getting away from the image of the nerd and the 4chan troll, doesnt mean you have to constantly demonize them and act as like they are just pathetic man-children who cant get their act together. There is a real reason more and more men feel disenfranchised and completely helpless. Many of them were never given any help and even told the opposite of what is true about girls. Many of them did not grow up with a father and therefore suffer under completely one-sided, overly sensitive and overly nurturing parenting. They were given no proper tools whatsoever to be a successful man, I dont blame them for feeling anger. They have no connections to society whatsoever, thats why they dont care to shoot it up. 

This is a legit problem. But it has little to do with feminism.

You could blame video games. Video games certainly have a lot more to do with it than feminism. Why don't you target video games instead?

Quote

Not only do feminists try to destroy any kind of positive male image or positive male space, it is also obvious that this whole thing is not about equality anymore. Equality has become a tool for many womens egotism.

This is false. This is exactly the kind of ideology that toxic masculinity promotes to avoid dealing with the root issue. Notice the blaming attitude here.

Quote

Then suddenly, traditional roles should be abandoned and are a thing of the past even though they will clearly always be a part of our behavior as it is highly influenced by our biological setup.

Traditional roles were not erased by feminists. Those traditional roles were never sustainable to begin with because they were built upon collective mental fictions and norms. Those norms had to break down with rise of various technological advancements.

You also underestimate how stiffing and limiting those roles were. People got sick of fitting into such narrow and artificial roles.

Society was never going to stay at Spiral Dynamics stage Blue, nor will it ever go back to those roles. Evolution marches forward.

Quote

If nothing is done, women and men will drift further apart which is bad because we want to aim towards unity, especially masculine and feminine need to come together because they are by nature intended to be complimentary and two sides of the same coin. Gender politics should not drive men and women further apart and should solely focus and bringing stuff together and working out differences which have to be accepted beforehand. 

If you really care about unity, then stop parroting this ideology and go read some books on feminism with an open mind.

You need to step outside your male perspective and look at society from the POV of women. Which is precisely what you won't want to do. And this is what's creating your perceived division. If you would see the world from the POV of women, your projection of division would cease and unity would result. You would also become happier and you'd be more successful with relating to women.

Remember, women in America could not have a line of credit from the bank until the 1970's. Just think about that!

Stop being so goddamned self-centered. The world doesn't revolve around you.

[Seed]

@Robi Steel Feminism is not complicated. It just means you wish for equality of the genders.

Why is that so scary?

 

 

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Seed said:

@Robi Steel Feminism is not complicated. It just means you wish for equality of the genders.

Why is that so scary?

The ego hates equality when it is on the benefiting end of an inequality.

Any move towards equality will be perceived as unfair by the ego who stood to benefit from the inequality.

That is selfishness 101.

If you take away a slaveowner's slaves, from his POV, he's losing something. And that's perceived as unfair.

[Shadowraix]

@Leo Gura What do you think about the many female feminist skeptics on YouTube? They are all about equality, but don't really subscribe just looking through the female perspective which they feel is too one sided for true equality (or equity) but their entire careers are based on debunking many feminist sided arguments through science and studies. Do you think it helps the movement by cutting the bullshit out or are they perhaps disconnect from the majority pov of women?

 

9 minutes ago, Seed said:

Feminism is not complicated. It just means you wish for equality of the genders.

Why is that so scary?

 

The dictionary definitions are very simple. But the political movements that calls themselves such a word is a much more complex issue and that pretty much applies with any movement. You can say extremists are not x word but it doesn't change that it largely damages the societal perceptions of the movement. At one point it got really popular to upload videos about triggered feminists who are clearly too dysfunctional to be able to handle such controversial matters and it caused a huge twist in how feminism is perceived. Scam artists such as Anita Sarkeesian who twist every little thing to be anti-woman so she can continue to earn money also hurts a truly noble cause and undermines actual legitimate inequality for woman. This is largely where the feminist = egotistical woman come from is these blow ups of a select handful of dysfunctional woman who don't represent the majority of the movement. Its how feminism and feminazi become synonymous for many people.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Shadowraix

[ahmad ibdah]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The ego hates equality when it is on the benefiting end of an inequality.

Any move towards equality will be perceived as unfair by the ego who stood to benefit from the inequality.

That is selfishness 101.

If you take away a slaveowner's slaves, from his POV, he's losing something. And that's perceived as unfair.

I am really confused here. You talked a lot about feminism lately and it was difficult to understand what you are relating to. Can we have some examples about males and females being unequal in America?

Maybe you are relating to a cultural change instead of legal changes, right? 

Also, many like Jordan Peterson don't oppose these changes or feminity or equality but they are arguing with toxic females I think ?

[Shadowraix]

@ahmad ibdah Yeah there is a bit of a disconnect here. Many people criticize feminism for those who try to make scientific claims which are actually unscientific and those who are so dysfunctional and toxic they only hurt the movement. Some label them as feminazis now but they have bee perceived as synonymous by many. Its because large portions of the media amplify these kind of behaviors and so they think it is the majority of the movement when in actuality most of the feminists are just normal woman trying to live their lives and don't like being treated as inferior. The toxic woman take coined terms like toxic masculinity, mansplaining, and manspreading which point to all actual damaging phenomenons and apply it to more things than it actually applies which undermines the issues themselves. But this is all because they have experienced it so much they fear of it everywhere they go. The culture is so damaging to woman they end up this way. And many of the dysfunctional hurt men will further perpetuate this issue because they are so focused in their own issues. But again the vocal extremists are very much a minority whos voiced get amplified by media. 

Yes it is largely a cultural change than legal. Woman actually have the upper hand in many legal concerns. Getting off with lighter crime sentences, getting favored in civil cases. There are many specific cases where men have it shit, but in your average day to day life of just trying to live and co-exist in society, we make it very hard for woman. Everytime I hang out with a woman somebody is trying to harass and cat-call them, send them dick pics and nasty texts. Companies who use sex as a means to sell this product are also further perpetuating this kind of behavior by making them addicted.

Of course I am pointing fingers at influences but the root still lies as who is being influenced which would be a much more root-issue fix than symptom fixes.

[How to be wise]

26 minutes ago, ahmad ibdah said:

I am really confused here. You talked a lot about feminism lately and it was difficult to understand what you are relating to. Can we have some examples about males and females being unequal in America?

Maybe you are relating to a cultural change instead of legal changes, right? 

Also, many like Jordan Peterson don't oppose these changes or feminity or equality but they are arguing with toxic females I think ?

Yes, in first world countries women formally have external equality (as far as I can see). 

But what about in informal settings. Many women are raped, molested and bullied sexually. How do you deal with those problems? That’s feminsm’s main goal (I think). I haven’t done much research in feminism, but it seems as though these are the problems being addressed.

[Ibn Sina]

I have to disagree with Leo here.

I  have witnessed  the evil of feminism.

Eg-

In my school,  guys (more often than not) used to get punished instead of girls.

One time a girl accused me of  falling off her bag from the bench, the teacher believed in her and gave a stick to me. (equivalent to false rape accusation).

Girls do hypergamy, there is more advantage to being a beautiful women then a beautiful guy. A beautiful girl can marry a rich guy, even can divorce him and get 50% wealth. Good looking guys do not have the same power.  And still women want jobs, they are getting reserved seats for jobs, it is easier for them to get jobs.

Men go to war and die, women enjoy and have sex. Here in my place, men go abroad and they even die, while women cheat on them. ( I know it is silly to send women to war, but still it doesn't mean it is not injustice or inequality. Why not women also suffer equally as men? I know, the top administration want a well disciplined army who will fight bravely and create the most efficiency in battle, but that is the point of view from the top administration, for a normal joe like me it's not about creating efficiency in the battle, if a conscripter comes to my home and says ' the emperor wants more soldiers' and he takes me away and my sister teases me , then I will be sad I want her to also go to the battle field and yes I know she will cry, she will urinate in the battle field scream aaaaaaaaaaaaaa with that high pitched voice that women make but still equality is equality suffering should be equal, a bullet is a bullet, both men and women feel the equal pain. They may run away like rats but they should also get bombed  like men are getting bombed if we want equality between men and women.
This is also a huge injustice and crime against men)

Yes, for most of history men have dominated women, but right  now this is not the case. ( exclude the undeveloped parts of the world)

People like , Ben Shapiro etc say - man up! don't be a pussy!

Just look at the above case, 
men accusing women and women accusing men, is this about manning up? Isn't there real inequality?

advantage of beautiful women vs men,  is this  about video games , or being a pussy? No , this is real inequality.

If we want equality, then there should be no gap in- men accusing and women accusing, there should be no , 50% off in marriage, there shouldn't be jobs reserved for women etc.

These are all enforced inequalities that have come from feminism. The only inequalities that is there in the world should be- natural inequality. Like- yes, beautiful women may get hit on more than beautiful men, or women may always get more attention in the fashion industry then men. Men will be more atheletic then women. Nature should take it's course, if women could really fight, then they would also be at the top, like who is stopping them from being CEOs? Why do you think men are the most CEOs, the most leaders, the top 1000 chess players, football players, scientists etc? Because they are good at it. It's not because there are some laws that have barred women from being at the top, but because the genetic distribution in males is such that the extreme ends of IQ and talent are dominated by men (both geniuses and idiots are men). 
Likewise, the thing about female is that they are the more attractive gender. Men are not whining abut that, so why are women whining about not being at the top? It's their own fault. And we men need not trying to create injustices among ourselves by believing in such feminists.

Men being at the top not the real evil or conspiracy. It's just how nature has taken it's course. What is real evil is making unnatural laws that makes men live unjustly and creates great suffering in the lives of men.

Also, if you are a prevailed male, you will not understand what I am saying.  You will go on earning tons of money, banging tons of chicks who are attracted to you for your money, ride in your ferrari, and see that there is no problem, but you will never understand how lucky you are, how your job is so limited and just by 'manning up' it is not possible to get the job that  you are in,  'manning up' doesn't turn you into a Bill Gates or Justin Bieber or earn easy money from a website and solve all the problem, You will understand this only when you are in less privileged  position and see inequality after inequality whether in job setting, social setting.

Ofcourse I am not saying that  women have it easy, but saying- feminism is all about equal opportunity, or it is something 'good' is wrong. It is pure evil and just a desire and excuse of women to get more and control.

If I was a female, and saw that all the president were male,  male sports star earn a lot, there are more male incels then female, I would understand each and every single one of them, and know that it is in natural. I know why males are the most president, and I wouldn't be thinking- because of male injustices bla bla, this are how they should be. There's no need for a feminist movement and if it is done, then it is only to increase  my own power.

Seriously, I am a female, I am beautiful, Men are attracted to me, I can marry a rich guy, I can easily get a job, we don't live in a society like in Handmaid's tale, if I can sing I will be successful like Ariana Grande, I can work hard and become a doctor engineer lawyer like any guy and earn same as him, or if I am dumb I can still work for sex  or some guy will marry me because I am hot. So everything's fine, what more do I want? Why I should I go to the street and demand more with feminism?

Because why not? I WANT MORE! 

Feminism was developed by the philosopher Simone de Beavoire who spoke for the rights of women, women who were really oppressed.

But now in the west and some developed parts in asia, except for women and privileged males who don't have to struggle hard , this is just a power game for women where women just want more.

On the other side are struggling men, they can't say- I will marry a rich women, they can't get a job because he is not a woman so his position is reserved for women and he is not a 1% genius or 1% lucky with connections so he is not competent enough to get the job, he gets accused by a woman and now he is in jail, he is molested by a woman and when he speaks they say 'man up you stupid', he is in an abusive marriage his wife abuses him he files for a divorce he loses 50% of his hard earned wealth.

So yes, feminism is evil and unjust and it is due to  evil women and privileged  1 % males who don't have to suffer.

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Shadowraix]

13 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

Yes, in first world countries women formally have external equality (as far as I can see). 

But what about in informal settings. Many women are raped, molested and bullied sexually. How do you deal with those problems? That’s feminsm’s main goal (I think). I haven’t done much research in feminism, but it seems as though these are the problems being addressed.

Well at least in the US men are raped as often as woman so it's probably better for that to be an egalitarian issue (if the stats are accurate) but I do think they are harassed and cat called way more. 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Shadowraix

[ahmad ibdah]

37 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

Well at least in the US men are raped as often as woman. 

What? ???

Is this a fact?

[How to be wise]

37 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

Well at least in the US men are raped as often as woman so it's probably better for that to be an egalitarian issue (if the stats are accurate) but I do think they are harassed and cat called way more. 

Please do your research. According to Wikipedia, 1 in 20 females have been raped some time in their life, compared to just 1 in 71 males. 

This is common sense. Of course men prefer to rape women rather than other men. Both exist, but the rate of rape for women is far higher, and much more likely.

[Shadowraix]

@How to be wise Short on time but

https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/04/male-rape-in-america-a-new-study-reveals-that-men-are-sexually-assaulted-almost-as-often-as-women.html

[How to be wise]

2 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

@How to be wise Short on time but

https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/04/male-rape-in-america-a-new-study-reveals-that-men-are-sexually-assaulted-almost-as-often-as-women.html

Interesting. I guess I’m no longer certain. 

[Shadowraix]

4 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

Interesting. I guess I’m no longer certain. 

Neither am I honestly which is why I added the parenthesis.

Rape on men is largely understudied imo and its not taken seriously due to perceptions that men always enjoy sex no matter what or that men can't be raped. Not to mention legal definition of sexual assault.

[Surfingthewave]

@Ibn Sina Wow there are so many things wrong with your statement I don't know where to start. Where are you from, let's start there. 

Where have you got your views from - I'm curious? Hopefully not You Tube like some of the other members above. I actually feel really sorry you have those outdated Victorian views of femininity *deep breath* all I can say is you got a lot of work to do my friend. 

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Surfingthewave

[Shadowraix]

@Ibn Sina I hear what you are saying but I don't think this is a result of 3rd wave feminism itself.

A lot of what you say is just typical stage orange materialism. Your perspective isn't without some truth but it lacks nuance on degree.

This is a common perspective to have when men feel attacked or that they have something less than woman. Theres more kinds of woman out there than the ones who just want to marry a rich guy for their own survival.

 

[Odysseus]

@Ibn Sina For me your comment is so far off, I'm kind of curious if you ever befriended a girl or even talked to girl. You adress so much resentment that I also don't know where to start.

Maybe let's start here: E.g. Did you hear about the kurdish peshmerga women brigade? They fought ISIS in Syria and Iraq... 

 

[RendHeaven]

12 minutes ago, Odysseus said:

I'm kind of curious if you ever befriended a girl or even talked to girl.

Haha I thought this too.