Self Bias Fox News

[Socrates]

How isn't this propaganda spewing Jesse guy not convicted for treason yet?

Watching this from europe, he literally gets paid big money to spit on the graves of mass shooting victims, the poor, the 30000+ that die from bad insurance each year and he sleeps at night LOL.

Also most importantly where do we draw the line of free speech vs radicalization?

[Leo Gura]

There is no such line because everything is relative.

Remember, 150 years ago millions of people believed they had the right to own slaves.

That's relativity.

What's even crazier is that since you are all beings, you were one of them! So your judgment of slaveowners is itself self-bias! How do we get everyone in the world to acknowledge that he/she owned slaves at one point?

LOL, good luck with that one.

[tenta]

Don't expect people to just see their own stupidity, they won't, and they won't need any mental gymanstics - they just won't listen

[Bodigger]

@Socrates @tenta Can you share some thoughts as to what specifically we can do to curb gun violence, or what is being done in other countries which is working well?

[Socrates]

@Bodigger Ofcourse, other countries don't have massively available AR weapons for the public to purchase but that is not the case in the US.

Since we have to start from where we are the fact is that there are 400 Million guns in America and it will be nearly impossible to get into the houses of Americans and take them.

So we need heavy regulation of AR's and tier 2 guns, make them illegal and harden the critiria for people who want to own even pistols.

This is relatively easy to implement for people that don't own any guns yet but really challenging for preowned guns that are already at people's homes since they won't be willing to give them up.

[Bodigger]

I will need to do some research, but I don't think AR's are responsible for very many gun deaths.  Do you have any statistics on AR caused deaths?

What criteria are you using in EU for gun owner ship.

I don't believe the guy that shot the cops in Philly had any guns which were legal to own.  I believe he was a felon.

[Bodigger]

I did find a stat which said that there have been 1,136 deaths related to mass shootings in the U.S. since 1966.  More people will die in the next two weeks in car accidents.  Three times that amount of people died on 9-11 (Passenger Jets).  The same amount of people died 2013 during the collapse of the Rana Plaza in Bangladesh.  More than 1,500 people died in 2011 when the Spicer Islander 1 went down near Zanzibar.  800 People will die this year in the U.S. riding a bicycles.

Is it really worth the fight against AR's?  I will keep mine, and when my daughter is hiding from a crazy using an AR, maybe there will be someone with a concealed carry 45 ACP with her to help the crazy end his session of insanity.

[Forestluv]

@Bodigger There have been over 250 mass shootings in the U.S this year. 346 in 2017 and 340 in 2018. Hundreds of people die each year in mass shootings, yet it's not just the number of deaths. That is only one measure of impact on a society. If there were 300+ drunken brawls at football games each year claiming hundreds, we would take serious action to reduce the deaths. People wouldn't say "well it's only a few hundred people dying at the games, more people die each year driving to the games". In the case of mass shootings, there are simple common sense measures to reduce the number of deaths that the vast majority of Americans support. Yet American gun culture goes deep and there are powerful lobbyists that are a hindrance. Reducing the number of pick-up trucks in Europe would be simple, since it is not part of their history and culture. Getting Japanese people to reduce their fish intake would be very difficult because it is deeply immersed in their culture. Restricting hand grenades and rocket-launchers in the U.S. is much easier, since they are not part of the culture.

35 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

I will keep mine, and when my daughter is hiding from a crazy using an AR, maybe there will be someone with a concealed carry 45 ACP with her to help the crazy end his session of insanity.

This is one concern about allowing ARs and guns to be more accessible and widespread. By this logic, everyone carries firearms and we live in a wild west environment / Mad Max world.

 

[Bodigger]

@Serotoninluv Okay then, lets talk about it.  What would you like to see done to reduce the number of deaths due to mass shootings.  Keep in mind that I was addressing the AR comment by@Socrates and by looking  at the stats you posted, you included every murder suicide as a mass shooting and I doubt there were any AR's involved in them.  If it is so common sense simple, please explain it to me because, apparently, I'm not that smart.  Also, be mindful of the fact that the criminals don't give a crap about what common sense law is, they are cunning.

[Forestluv]

17 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

@Serotoninluv Okay then, lets talk about it.  What would you like to see done to reduce the number of deaths due to mass shootings.  Keep in mind that I was addressing the AR comment by@Socrates and by looking  at the stats you posted, you included every murder suicide as a mass shooting and I doubt there were any AR's involved in them.  If it is so common sense simple, please explain it to me because, apparently, I'm not that smart.  Also, be mindful of the fact that the criminals don't give a crap about what common sense law is, they are cunning.

It seems like you have strong opinions that you are attached/identified with and would like to debate. Ime, these types of debates are inefficient because a person argues and defends a perspective they are attached/identified to. Such debates tend to contract a person further into the perspective, rather than expand.  For me to debate you, I would need to hold the opposite opinion as yours. I'm just not into that type of conversation.

[Leo Gura]

@Bodigger The day your daughter's school gets shot up, you will change your mind.

You are still treating all this as a mere abstraction. You aren't actually empathizing or feeling any of it.

[Socrates]

@Bodigger Counter-intuitively owning any weapon makes you less safe overall so that argument is off the table. 

By having laws in place that allow YOU to own a gun to "protect" yourself and your family, you enable the crazy guy owning a gun as well and guess what this is a lot worse than neither of you having any gun. 

The latest las vegas shooting didn't have one AR but 21 suitcases of both AR's and lots of ammo. It is unreasonable being able to own AR's let alone such a quantity of them. Also, the Orlando nightclub shooting involved an AR.

At the very least if you have to have a gun, a pistol is just fine you don't need such caliber type of weapon, it is over the top. 

If you actually investigate the biggest mass shootings they all involved an AR-type of weapon, this is a red flag. 

At the end of the day, guns wouldn't be a problem if you didn't have so many radicals fueled with racism and hatred in America. You see when the media and the president radicalize naive and ignorant people against Mexicans, gays and blacks, the fool sees it as a good move to go out and kill a bunch of those people. This is the root of the issue and the only longterm solution is quality education.

It is no coincidence the average Trump voter fits perfectly the American stereotype of a Texas redneck  

[Bodigger]

@Serotoninluv I am willing to have an adult conversation without generalizations and having good factual information.  I'm not making an attempt to get people to agree with me, merely having a truthful conversation about the rite to protect myself and my family against thugs.  I am open to an idea of relinquishing firearms as long it is the thugs.  This, IMO is a very difficult thing to do while allowing the lawful people to protect themselves.  If I came across emotional, it was not my intension.  The rhetoric gets old without commons sense details and calling people names to get your point out there does nothing for the discussion.

I don't have the rifle for protection.  I use it for hunting and plinking.  If someone were to actually break into my house I have a shotgun that would be better in the dark.

I live in Wisconsin and two people will be shot and killed today in Milwaukee/Chicago.  Yes, this is a war zone.  Now what?  Stop talking because you think my mind is made up.  Go back and reread this page and show me where there are any specific intellectual ideas regarding what to do about deaths from shootings.

[ummmm]

When will everyone understand that it isnt the gun, but the person.  If not a gun, it will be bombs, cars, knives, forks, sticks, spears.  If someone wants to kill, they will kill.  Period.  There will always be bad people.  Taking away the 2nd amendment right will not solve the problem.  It will only make the good guys more vulnerable.  The lack of respect in todays culture, no care of consequence, lenient judges, our judicial system sucks.  Our culture today is a disaster waiting to happen.  Honestly, bring back public executions, hung by the neck.  You commit a crime as heinous as a mass murder, you deserve it.  You dont spend the next 25 years on death row in air conditioning and three meals a day.  Opinion only.  

[Bodigger]

@Socrates @Leo Gura Again, I am open for the discussion.  How would you write up the law and enact it while keeping the rites of the people intact.  States and countries can act on this.  Taking guns away from the collective has been done with little to no success.  Like @ummmm said, they will find a way.  In 2014 a 16 year old in Canada stabbed 24 people in 5 minutes.  Evil exists all around us. 

I am much more concerned about my daughters getting caught up in drugs and alcohol than the random shooter, but lets here some of your ideas about gun laws.

[Leo Gura]

@Bodigger Congress has already proposed sensible gun control which is being blocked by Senate Republicans.

Here's the bare minimum that I would propose:

• Federal background checks on all firearm sales
• Closing the gun show loop holes on private sales
• Ban of high capacity magazines
• Ban of bump stocks & other such mods
• Ban of body armor and armor piercing rounds
• Red flag laws
• Serious training and licensing in order to buy a gun at all. Like the DMV but for guns.
• Ban open-carry of firearms in public places
• Mandatory locks for all firearms
• Legal liability if someone accesses your gun to shoot a person when it wasn't properly locked
• Federal database of all firearms purchased and some kind of limits on people amassing arsenals.
• Waiting periods to buy firearms. A week or more.
• Ban mentally ill people or domestic abusers from owning firearms.

All of this is totally reasonable and supported by the majority of Americans and even responsible gun owners.

Of course this will not prevent all mass shootings. But it's a good idea to have these protections in place.

[Bodigger]

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

44 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Congress has already proposed sensible gun control which is being blocked by Senate Republicans.

Here's the bare minimum that I would propose:

• Federal background checks on all firearm sales

 

Well, now we're talking....I would like to take each item up separately so we don't get into generalizations.

This will require everyone to register the guns they own.  Of course this will make many decent people become felons because they will refuse to register them.  This has been done in the past and the next step would be to ban one type of gun at a time until all the guns are gone, well, except for the guns that aren't registered.  Also, there will still be millions of unregistered guns which are owned be the thugs.  Now the only people who would have guns are the thugs and the smart ones who hide them.  This will not work in the U.S.

[Bodigger]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

 

• Closing the gun show loop holes on private sales

Still not sure what they mean by gun show loop holes.  Anyone with an FFL license does a back ground check on every gun sale, does not matter if it is at a gun show, a store, or private.  I think this term was made up because it sounds like it means something but it really means absolutely nothing.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Bodigger said:

Well, now we're talking....I would like to take each item up separately so we don't get into generalizations.

This will require everyone to register the guns they own.  Of course this will make many decent people become felons because they will refuse to register them.  This has been done in the past and the next step would be to ban one type of gun at a time until all the guns are gone, well, except for the guns that aren't registered.  Also, there will still be millions of unregistered guns which are owned be the thugs.  Now the only people who would have guns are the thugs and the smart ones who hide them.  This will not work in the U.S.

So what? Big deal. If you can register a car, you can register a gun.

How come I have to register my business with the IRS but not an arsenal of 20 assault rifles? It's absurd.

Do not confuse registration with a ban on guns.

Illegal guns will always exist, but requiring registration of all new firearm purchases would help eliminate young teens from buying up guns for their sprees. Many of these mass shooters purchased a firearm within weeks or months of their spree.

2 hours ago, Bodigger said:

Still not sure what they mean by gun show loop holes.  Anyone with an FFL license does a back ground check on every gun sale, does not matter if it is at a gun show, a store, or private.  I think this term was made up because it sounds like it means something but it really means absolutely nothing.

Currently you can go to a gun show and buy a gun from a private party without any background check or waiting period whatsoever. It's absurd.

These gun shows a very problematic. Back in the 90's I was once at a gun show where they were selling flamethrowers, grenades, body armor, and all sorts of other shady stuff. That particular gun show had to be closed because of how much illegal stuff was sold there. I'm sure that kind of stuff still goes on around the country. It's not hard to go to a gun show and purchase a firing pin which will turn your semi-auto AR-15 into a fully-auto.

I have family members who were able to purchase grenade launchers at gun shows.

[possibilities]

Not everything is relative - I argue against that here:

https://www.quora.com/Does-moral-relativism-offer-a-coherent-and-plausible-description-of-morality/answer/Florence-Rivers

Would be happy to elaborate. All in all it seems that moral relativism would be highly misguided if it wasn’t grounded in biological norms. Biological norms are like physics, they don’t just suddenly change (meaning they’re not at all relative unless you have a timescale of millions of years to take evolutionary changes into account). 

Relativists I’ve found are misguided on this point, they’re analogous to atheists in the atheism versus theism debates. There’s a lack of balance I notice there.

@Leo Gura

 

P.S - I forgot in that comment I said I was going to elaborate more, of which I haven’t, so I’ll get to that as soon as I can.

Edited August 21, 2019 by possibilities