Leo, Israel is a very complex and nuanced culture

[Nivsch]

We have like 5 very different streams, and every one of them have significant power and wants to push the ship towards its direction.

Our society is highly heterogenic, more than most countries!

Actually most of israelis citizens don't want settlements (islands-like within judea and samaria montains). Some think its unfair, and some think it takes hugh amount of money and energy to secure it.

40% of Israel society is not different from USA or even western europe at all in their value system.

And Israel society as a whole, is similar, in the value system, to any north mediteranean country (Italy, Greece, etc.) At least the vast majority for sure.

We have to understand Israel governary method which is problematic. Why? Because the prime minister must maintain a coallition of 61 members (half +1 of total 120 knesset members).

Even if Netanyahu wanted border and total seperation between us and the palestaines, he would have hard time in doing that, because than, even one tiny party of 5 members that opposed it, can retire the coalition in such that Netanyahu will no longer has 61 members, and the government will collapse, which means we cant do anything and we have new elections.

Its significantly different from the USA method. In average we have election every 2-3 years because the prime minister can be squizzed very easly.

If he had a large coalition (it is possible) it would be easier but stiil not so easy.

I dont know if Netanyahu wants that seperation or not or he is struggling, he probably doesnt want it strongly enough and his chair is surely more important to him.

In september 17th we have elections and I hope he will loose and we will have a more developed government. 

Please be less unambigous and a little more complexity-considerate in your speaking when you mention Israel or 'zionists' in your videos ??

Edited August 15, 2019 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

Of course the leadership can change, but Israeli politics has been heavily dominated by Zionists for a long time, just as right now American politics is heavily dominated by nationalists.

It's like blaming America for the Iraq War even though many Americans were against it. But as a national we deserve to be blamed for allowing such things to happen in our name.

[Forestluv]

@Nivsch I noticed that Israel denied Reps. Omar and Tlaib entry hours after Trump's tweet and call to block them. I'm curious about you view on this and how the government and society may view it.

[Nivsch]

@Leo Gura Zionism, in our terminology, is about loving our land and following the values of the Declaration of Independence which are: 1. Freedom 2. Justice 3. Accepting all of its citizens and be opened to all religions, genders and races without discriminating. Yes, the state is jewish, but every non jewish citizen deserve fully human rights and also right to do his religious rituals whenever he wants just as the jewish people. Its much more elevated than only "nationalism". Much more green.

Unfortunately, some parties arent really zionists in the original intention, and they are much more nationalists and those jewish people are heavily blue but the real heavy hard core blue is minority. 

Jewish population in israel are:

~40-45% orange-green mainly

~55-60% blue-orange mainly

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence

Edited August 16, 2019 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Nivsch I noticed that Israel denied Reps. Omar and Tlaib entry hours after Trump's tweet and call to block them. I'm curious about you view on this and how the government and society may view it.

I think trump position is not smart at all and the right thing to do is to allow them enter israel, but it still not black and white because those women didnt want to visit israel and only wanted to visit the pelastinian authority. Why? If you really care about the peace in the rigion, you cant just bypass israelis people and government.

But still it would be better to allow them in and not fuel more their biased beliefs. I dont know what are those women value systems. If they are really liberals and only get mislead by the BDS (whose values are like Iran and Saudi) so letting them in maybe even change their mind about israel.

In the other hand, if they have arabs nationalists values it would less work and maybe letting them in would grasped by them like a weakness! So i prone to let them in, but the answer is not a clear cut.

Trump, although his low consiousness, can still teach us lessons in how to talk to middle eastern people, which liberals people might have be to naive and do damaging things (like they did in the horrible Aslo agreement in 1993 and Iran agreement in 2015). In that kind of thing right-wing people are superior to liberals. After all, every stage is the most expert of his stage issues! We cant overlook that fact.

Including blue is not the same as working 9:00-18:00 in blue!

Edited August 16, 2019 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

@Nivsch Unfortunately ideals and flowery rhetoric often mask the true nature of the beast.

Our Statue of Liberty says, "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." yet we hold asylum seekers in concentration camps right this minute.

Zionism may have good intentions, but the practical result of such an ideology results in putting Jews first, above all others. Which is problematic.

I know there are many Jews who don't support the right-wing Israeli government. Good for them. Be more vocal.

[Neri]

leo,

we invited Don Beck to tel aviv 12 years ago. he visited us much less then his 72 visits to south africa. but yet please check what he say about external pressure - it delayed the process in 5 years.

 

There is a book of Elza Maalouf from lebanon called Emerge. it describe what we done and where we are heading.

 

we working on networking yellow thinkers and contribute to a shift in israel but it is wrong to put blame on any of the parties. The arab values ideas and action also play a role in this conflict

A strong Meme as Zionism is not good or bad it is expression of evolving life condition and ideas. at its origin in europe as orage-green while now in a different reality of state existence and war and melting pot of millions emigrants (jews) that shifted the center of that nation from america to israel and developed more purple-blue ideas that govern society idea of who they are.

 

  i discuss some of it here:

http://www.integralworld.net/bar-on1.html

 

 

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Neri said:

A strong Meme as Zionism is not good or bad it is expression of evolving life condition and ideas.

I hear what you're saying. But I just wonder, when the Nazi's were coming to power in the 30's, what would you have proposed?

The trick is that when you negotiate with fundamentalists they take and take and take and give nothing in return.

I'm curious how you would negotiate with conservatives in America. Obama tried to appease them and it didn't work. They still smeared him as a socialist and undermined him at every turn.

How would you deal with Trump and his evangelical base? You think they are going to negotiate with you and give any ground to stage Green? Would you advocate not to put pressure on the migrant concentration camps at the US border & on Trump?

Vocal outrage can be an effective tool for social evolution as most people are complacent and unaware of what's really happening in society. The outrage can make people aware of the issue.

I have read Elza Maalouf's book.

I am really curious how you negotiate with people who precisely do not want rise above their worldview? Sometimes I feel like Integral Theory is too naive and idealistic about how ruthless politics can be.

What do you consider the solution to Trump? Is it better to elect a centrist Democrat or a far left one like Bernie Sanders who will put pressure on the corporate domination of US politics and drive hard towards Green?

I feel like Obama's approach towards the conservatives was somewhat stage Yellow, yet it did not work out so well because the conservatives just took advantage of of his moderation and willingness to compromise.

When one side is acting like a devil, what do you do according to Spiral Dynamics? Because the devil is certainly clever enough to take advantage of a moderate Spiral Dynamics approach.

[RoerAmit]

I believe that the main problem of the Israeli left is blaming Netanyahu for destroying the country, and not taking any responsibility. So many Israelis are so focused on him, and no one is really looking for a real deep solution for both sides.

Leo, it is very much like you said in your conciseness politics mini-series. Each side (Israeli right and left) is self-biased and no one goes within to find whats really needs to be done. The Israeli left is so stuck on a victim position, it might be the reason the country is so stuck in deeply-blue orange state.        But at the same time, the country is only 70 years old and most of the right wingers came to here in the 50s from eastern states while they were really into red-blue position - So I believe we’re really progressing into more and more green. 

By the way, do you believe it is yourself taking to yourself right now? Its so radical. Really hard to swallow. But I’m still trying to be open to that.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, RoerAmit said:

I believe that the main problem of the Israeli left is blaming Netanyahu for destroying the country, and not taking any responsibility. So many Israelis are so focused on him, and no one is really looking for a real deep solution for both sides.

Leo, it is very much like you said in your conciseness politics mini-series. Each side (Israeli right and left) is self-biased and no one goes within to find whats really needs to be done. The Israeli left is so stuck on a victim position, it might be the reason the country is so stuck in deeply-blue orange state.        But at the same time, the country is only 70 years old and most of the right wingers came to here in the 50s from eastern states while they were really into red-blue position - So I believe we’re really progressing into more and more green. 

I don't know much about the Israeli left, so I can't speak to those internal politics. I'm more looking at Israel as an outsider and criticizing it from an outsider's perspective. From an outsider's international perspective is seems that Israel's conservative party has hijacked the country and behaves unfairly towards Palestinians by trying to make a two state solution impossible with sneaky settles. I see this is a right-wing collective egotism which lack empathy for Palestinians.

So my only point is that just devilry should be called out and not encouraged (the way the American right-wing likes to do).

Quote

By the way, do you believe it is yourself taking to yourself right now? Its so radical. Really hard to swallow. But I’m still trying to be open to that.

It's not a matter of belief. You are God, you are One, and you are all things. It's not that I'm talking to myself, it's that you're talking to yourself. If it seem like you're talking to me that's because you've adopted the belief in separate human beings.

Oneness is a radical thing.

[Paul92]

@Leo Gura And you have adopted the belief of oneness.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Paul92 said:

@Leo Gura And you have adopted the belief of oneness.

Oneness is not a belief. Oneness is an Absolute.

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't know much about the Israeli left, so I can't speak to those internal politics. I'm more looking at Israel as an outsider and criticizing it from an outsider's perspective. From an outsider's international perspective is seems that Israel's conservative party has hijacked the country and behaves unfairly towards Palestinians by trying to make a two state solution impossible with sneaky settles. I see this is a right-wing collective egotism which lack empathy for Palestinians.

Gaza for example is a complete authonomy with border, Israel is not there at all since 2005, and Hamas takes all the money Israel gives him and expliot it to terror weapon, and leave the citizens a minimal amount of money. The humanitarian situation in Gaza is terrible even tough dozens of tracks with food and medicine cross the border from israel to gaza every week.

Actually if there was a palesinian state, they were most likely suffer more because the palestinian leadership is red cruel (hamas) and red-blue in the best case (palestinian authority). And we cant know what leadership will grow up there after Mahmud abbas will leave. Maybe hamas will take back part of the control in west bank. The only reason hamas dont control west bank today its because israel doing security job every night and co oparating with the palestinians authority.

Actually we kind of save west bank citizens from hamas because the palastinian authority is probably not strong enough to secure the west bank from hamas.

I stiil want seperation from them also in the west bank, but it has to be made cleverly and with israel's right to do interventions there whenever it wants, in order to keep terrorists from taking control there.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

@Nivsch Now analyze the situation as if you had no personal stake in the game.

It's going to be very difficult for you to step outside of your Israeli self-bias if you live in Israeli and identify with being Israeli.

[Paul92]

@Leo Gura You believe it's an Absolute. Can it be proven beyond all doubt?

[How to be wise]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I hear what you're saying. But I just wonder, when the Nazi's were coming to power in the 30's, what would you have proposed?

The trick is that when you negotiate with fundamentalists they take and take and take and give nothing in return.

I'm curious how you would negotiate with conservatives in America. Obama tried to appease them and it didn't work. They still smeared him as a socialist and undermined him at every turn.

How would you deal with Trump and his evangelical base? You think they are going to negotiate with you and give any ground to stage Green? Would you advocate not to put pressure on the migrant concentration camps at the US border & on Trump?

Vocal outrage can be an effective tool for social evolution as most people are complacent and unaware of what's really happening in society. The outrage can make people aware of the issue.

I have read Elza Maalouf's book.

I am really curious how you negotiate with people who precisely do not want rise above their worldview? Sometimes I feel like Integral Theory is too naive and idealistic about how ruthless politics can be.

What do you consider the solution to Trump? Is it better to elect a centrist Democrat or a far left one like Bernie Sanders who will put pressure on the corporate domination of US politics and drive hard towards Green?

I feel like Obama's approach towards the conservatives was somewhat stage Yellow, yet it did not work out so well because the conservatives just took advantage of of his moderation and willingness to compromise.

When one side is acting like a devil, what do you do according to Spiral Dynamics? Because the devil is certainly clever enough to take advantage of a moderate Spiral Dynamics approach.

The more conscious you become, the less you worry about “results” because it really doesn’t matter that much. The solution to devilry is to just wait until that devilry is conquered by truth. The reason why devils are ruling today is because they should. This devilry you see today will be a necessary foundation for the higher consciousness of the future. Don’t be impatient about raising consciousness. Everything will happen in the perfect time.

[Nivsch]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Nivsch Now analyze the situation as if you had no personal stake in the game.

It's going to be very difficult for you to step outside of your Israeli self-bias if you live in Israeli and identify with being Israeli.

I agree we need to seperate oursleves from the palestinians because the friction is exhausting and also corrapts us. 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Nivsch

[Mezanti]

@Nivsch hes talking about separating you "nivsch" from the israeli identity imagine if you weren't israeli, view it from a birds eye view, try imagining you are the palestinian... how would it feel like, wouldn't you have the same self bias to palestine that you now have towards israel? the answer is yes my friend

 

[Aeris]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I hear what you're saying. But I just wonder, when the Nazi's were coming to power in the 30's, what would you have proposed?

The trick is that when you negotiate with fundamentalists they take and take and take and give nothing in return.

I'm curious how you would negotiate with conservatives in America. Obama tried to appease them and it didn't work. They still smeared him as a socialist and undermined him at every turn.

How would you deal with Trump and his evangelical base? You think they are going to negotiate with you and give any ground to stage Green? Would you advocate not to put pressure on the migrant concentration camps at the US border & on Trump?

Vocal outrage can be an effective tool for social evolution as most people are complacent and unaware of what's really happening in society. The outrage can make people aware of the issue.

I have read Elza Maalouf's book.

I am really curious how you negotiate with people who precisely do not want rise above their worldview? Sometimes I feel like Integral Theory is too naive and idealistic about how ruthless politics can be.

What do you consider the solution to Trump? Is it better to elect a centrist Democrat or a far left one like Bernie Sanders who will put pressure on the corporate domination of US politics and drive hard towards Green?

I feel like Obama's approach towards the conservatives was somewhat stage Yellow, yet it did not work out so well because the conservatives just took advantage of of his moderation and willingness to compromise.

When one side is acting like a devil, what do you do according to Spiral Dynamics? Because the devil is certainly clever enough to take advantage of a moderate Spiral Dynamics approach.

Coral leo- forget 'teal+jesuslove'. Darth vader is the true love.

I m claiming it since years and be put on the side for claiming it.

It's holy war against all forms of stupidity. And the better way to do it is ; all ways and tools at your hands. 'clean your room' the World is our room.

Tada love circle is completed. Let's start boiling skulls for dinner <3

Edited August 16, 2019 by Aeris

[ArchangelG]

Radical implications of the conflict.

Here's a documentary claiming that the true location of the temple was in the city of david, a few hundred meters from temple mount where it is commonly believed that the temple stood will be built. 

If this was true it would solve the core emotional issue of the conflict.

Another thought that's a little bit woo-woo and out there. IF there would be a collective jewish acceptence of this "fact", then that might serve as the "miracle" that is talked about in religious scriptures.