Basic income

[Revolutionary Think]

@Bodigger A great man once said, "shhhhhh.......here that sucking sound?  That's the corporations sucking your money out of your bank account because they are unregulated and can do whatever they want". 

BTW UBI literally puts it back in your account does the total opposite of what you said. That's all it does. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Revolutionary Think

[Bodigger]

4 minutes ago, Revolutionary Think said:

BTW UBI literally puts it back in your account does the total opposite of what you said. That's all it does. 

And where are they doing this?

[Forestluv]

55 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

@Serotoninluv People have the power.  They just don't know how to use it.  I see people complain and complain about those evil corporations, yet the majority of the complainers are still buying their products and own stocks in them.  

I think you underestimate the power corporations have. It's not that corporations should have zero power. It's a balance of power. Excessive corporate power threatens democracy. Look at the effect of corporate power on politicians. The conflict of interest is off the chart high. Accountability is low. Corporations buy off and control most politicians. This isn't about not buying corporate products. That train left the station in the 1980s. This goes much deeper and systemic than that. 

55 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

@Serotoninluv Most likely they are not truly happy and that is where we can be an example and show them a way.  Controlling others has never brought happiness but controlling ourselves may.  

Personal empowerment is fine and dandy. Yet economic oppression is also a factor. Studies have shown that there is a correlation between well-being and income up to an average salary (about $60,000 family income).

55 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

Most likely, if any of this does take place, it won't happen in our lifetime so for now, do what you can and help out.......one person at a time.

Who should fight for systemic change and when? Systemic change doesn't magically happen on it's own. It's fought for by people Now and it takes time to evolve. Currently, democracy is on the decline and authoritarian/totalitarian/corporatism is on the rise - domestically and globally. It will continue to worsen if there is no counter-effort.  That effort comes from we the people, now.

[RichardY]

1 hour ago, Bodigger said:

@Serotoninluv People have the power.  They just don't know how to use it.  I see people complain and complain about those evil corporations, yet the majority of the complainers are still buying their products and own stocks in them.  Yes, their are many thugs in the corporate world, but there are thugs all around us.  Most likely they are not truly happy and that is where we can be an example and show them a way.  Controlling others has never brought happiness but controlling ourselves may.  Most likely, if any of this does take place, it won't happen in our lifetime so for now, do what you can and help out.......one person at a time.

@Revolutionary Think So you think that I am stuck.....I am open to many ideas.  the fact that I don't think like you or many who agree with you does not mean that I am stuck.  Show me an example of things I have said which makes you say that.  A great man once said, "shhhhhh.......here that sucking sound?  That's the government sucking your money out of your bank account".

Unless the great man is some other guy. The quote I could find on google is attributed to Ross Perot. Who was against NAFTA, North American Free Trade Association.
 

Quote

We have got to stop sending jobs overseas. It's pretty simple: If you're paying $12, $13, $14 an hour for factory workers and you can move your factory South of the border, pay a dollar an hour for labor, ... have no health care—that's the most expensive single element in making a car— have no environmental controls, no pollution controls and no retirement, and you don't care about anything but making money, there will be a giant sucking sound going south. ... when [Mexico's] jobs come up from a dollar an hour to six dollars an hour, and ours go down to six dollars an hour, and then it's leveled again. But in the meantime, you've wrecked the country with these kinds of deals.

 

Edited August 26, 2019 by RichardY

[RichardY]

On ‎24‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 5:16 PM, Donald said:

 

UBI cannot work unless all WARS are ended. Nations must realize that waging wars is just a waste of money and human life. And by reducing/eliminating ALL military spendings, it will not have a huge impact on taxes.

But again, we are talking about making changes to a  VERY complex system. 

 

P.S The pendulum must swing from Fear to LOVE. 

I could see how that would be difficult, or impossible. War is doublethink.

[Revolutionary Think]

1 hour ago, Bodigger said:

And where are they doing this?

The country of my ancestors https://borgenproject.org/universal-basic-income-in-iran/  

[Bodigger]

19 hours ago, Revolutionary Think said:

The country of my ancestors https://borgenproject.org/universal-basic-income-in-iran/  

I am trying to discuss this in a serious matter.  It is difficult for me to take this article seriously since it is written by an intern from San Francisco, and the it is about Iran.......really.  How much truth do you think the Iranians gave this kid.  Furthermore, is this a country you would want to emulate?  Not me...

[Revolutionary Think]

Alaska https://qz.com/1205591/a-universal-basic-income-experiment-in-alaska-shows-employment-didnt-drop/  

[Bodigger]

19 hours ago, RichardY said:

Unless the great man is some other guy. The quote I could find on google is attributed to Ross Perot. Who was against NAFTA, North American Free Trade Association.

I recall him saying what I said earlier in a debate replying to Bill Clinton.  Although, I was only 25 years old and perhaps hearing what I wanted to at that time in my life.

[Revolutionary Think]

Best argument so far. 

  

[tenta]

Bernie Sanders is against it even tho he has no reason to be, and hasn't addressed it

[Bodigger]

17 minutes ago, Revolutionary Think said:

Alaska https://qz.com/1205591/a-universal-basic-income-experiment-in-alaska-shows-employment-didnt-drop/  

Now this is good.  Keep it within the states.  I like how they are capitalizing on there own resources. 

[Bodigger]

On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 4:33 PM, Serotoninluv said:

A pharmaceutical CEO is having a cocktail on his yacht laughing at how he ripped off Boddigger and she doesn’t even know it. He is laughing because billionaires have convinced thousandaires that the penniless are the problem. 

Reading this confused me as to the word 'she'.  It dawned on me that you may have gotten this from my profile.  I don't recall the gender question when I signed in, but I corrected it.  I apologize to you and everyone on this site.  I meant no deception and yes, I am a male.

[Bodigger]

21 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

I think you underestimate the power corporations have. It's not that corporations should have zero power. It's a balance of power. Excessive corporate power threatens democracy. Look at the effect of corporate power on politicians. The conflict of interest is off the chart high. Accountability is low. Corporations buy off and control most politicians. This isn't about not buying corporate products. That train left the station in the 1980s. This goes much deeper and systemic than that. 

I'm sure you know that people own corporations.  Millions of people own these corporations.

22 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Personal empowerment is fine and dandy. Yet economic oppression is also a factor. Studies have shown that there is a correlation between well-being and income up to an average salary (about $60,000 family income).

perhaps we should have BI at 60K per family annually.  I think you know what would happen then.

22 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Who should fight for systemic change and when? Systemic change doesn't magically happen on it's own. It's fought for by people Now and it takes time to evolve. Currently, democracy is on the decline and authoritarian/totalitarian/corporatism is on the rise - domestically and globally. It will continue to worsen if there is no counter-effort.  That effort comes from we the people, now.

Starts with ourselves.......

I have been involved in this world, and this life, for over five decades, and the world has been ending for centuries.  Things will happen on God's time frame, not ours.  If we think it has to happen now, we are all doomed.  Doomed without knowing serenity is an unfortunate waste of life.

[Forestluv]

53 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

I'm sure you know that people own corporations.  Millions of people own these corporations.

There are individual egos of corporate owners. There is also a collective ego of corporate owners and a corporate ego. 

53 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

perhaps we should have BI at 60K per family annually.  

That is not what I am saying. That is a recontextualization. The original context is that personal empowerment and economic income are factors in well-being. This does not imply that economic income is sufficient.

It would be like saying: to become an olympic athlete, training and healthy diet are both factors. And then saying: perhaps we should give everyone a healthy diet and make them olympic athletes. . . It doesn't make logical sense.

As well, necessity does not mean it can be solved by a simple mechanism. That would be like saying "To end world hunger, just give everyone lots of food".

53 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

Starts with ourselves.......

Again, I am not disagreeing with you. Over and over, I have agreed with you. I am saying that personal empowerment AND economic empowerment are BOTH factors in promoting well being. You seem to be at one extreme and I am trying to show balance. . . If someone was on the other extreme and said "Economic income is sufficient for well being", I would be saying that personal empowerment is also a factor. 

I don't think dropping a ton of cash in a poor neighborhood is the most effective mechanism. I think part of the investment should go toward promoting personal empowerment. To give disadvantaged people the resources to empower themselves and reach their potential. Resources includes cash, yet is not limited to cash. Resources goes way beyond cash.

53 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

Things will happen on God's time frame, not ours. 

 You are making a distinction between "God" and "Us". This can enter into metaphysical realms, yet you seem to be using the term "God" in the classical sense that there is an anthropomorphic entity separate from a person.

53 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

If we think it has to happen now, we are all doomed. 

You have consistently valued and promoted personal empowerment. I find it interesting that you suddenly embraced personal dis-empowerment. In terms SD, it is like going from Orange-level personal empowerment to Blue - in which personal empowerment is delegated to an external god. I think if you got a taste of Green empowerment, you might be surprised.

[Revolutionary Think]

   

[RichardY]

5 hours ago, Bodigger said:

Now this is good.  Keep it within the states.  I like how they are capitalizing on there own resources. 

That is a terrible way of having UBI, paying a 'dividend'. Even if it's now popular.

That's the sort of thing that'll lead to even more over fishing, and increasing oil production. If it was changed to issuing 'shares', that would be better, the people then have a stake in the resources.

There's lots of abandoned gold and silver mining towns dotted all over the Midwest, one particular town "Victor, Colorado" from nearly 20,000 residents to a few hundred, when Gold was nationalised. So it's not like resources aren't available, the issue isn't with who owns them, but with how they are managed.
 

5 hours ago, Bodigger said:

I recall him saying what I said earlier in a debate replying to Bill Clinton.  Although, I was only 25 years old and perhaps hearing what I wanted to at that time in my life.

It is a shame that Laisse Faire Capitalism, evolves into monopoly capitalism.(perhaps with deeper metaphysical concerns).

The problem is when the fundamental assets are owned by a small number of people, or chokepoints controlled in a monopolistic fashion. (eg. Land Trusts and Banking) . With cashless societies developing  controlled by a few monopoly capitalists (or the government), coupled with negative interests rate that sucking sound is a possibility. 

 

[RichardY]

@Revolutionary Think
Saw that video, a while a go. With consciousness being primary, "taxing" the machines doesn't really work. Issuing "shares" as a UBI is a possibility.

[Bodigger]

I like the idea that it starts with a state and not the whole nation.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Bodigger
rewording

[Bodigger]

@RichardY Do you at least think it is a good place to start BI?