Basic income

[Revolutionary Think]

@Keyhole You're welcome. Here's some info for you to start looking at https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-freedom-dividend-faq/ 

[Gidiot]

@Serotoninluv most arguments I see online go along the lines of “ that business man has worked hard and earned that profit, taxing him and giving it to the poor is literally theft.” 
 

I personally think being a billionaire is immoral but beside the point it’s hard to get to that level of wealth without devilry. 
 

are there good and kind billionaires yes in theory but hoarding all that money is dangerous. It doesn’t do anyone any good besides to reinforce a class structure.  
 

unfortunately communism is what is demonized, and while state ownership of everything would be too extreme for this day in age, I would like to see how it could be implemented in an extremely highly conscious society. 
 

I think capitalism works so well because it promotes greed which is rampant at stage orange, like The point Leo made on his Venezuela blog that socialism could only work in a green + society. 
 

and then in his chart of political systems on the spiral, world government is yellow,

 

something about world government screams communism esque, but the good parts of it.

 

the best way to have a thriving economy is to have income equality, and it would be radical but it could work with the right consciousness.

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Revolutionary Think said:

The finger doesn't have the ability to point at itself 

Gooooood! Young Padawan. Very goooooood....

[RichardY]

UBI should be set to Assets, like land so it varies according to the population. If it's set to economic activity, that can lead to an over exploitation of resources. Depleting agricultural land, aquifers, oil, and fisheries. Whether a welfare state, UBI or combo, better to tax and redistribute, the fundamental assets as opposed to the production from those assets.

[Revolutionary Think]

@RichardY I'm not sure I follow. I'd rather have money than land because if I don't have a buyer for the resources I have what good will that do me to just have those resources. Money can be transferred into anything it's more fluid where as land and resources are more concrete. 

[RichardY]

@Revolutionary Think
An average land value per acre can be worked out per state(based on capital resources, reservoirs, mineral wealth etc), so people would move to areas that can best sustain the population. Whether it's converted to cash or direct local land grants, it would be pegging the UBI to something and not by arbitrary dictate. The point is redistributing the assets and not the produce, or economic activity. So that people adapt to the environment.

If a UBI linked to fundamental assets, is used as cash for expenditure on consumption goods, it's does not fundamentally affect the assets of the country or region long term.

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by RichardY

[Revolutionary Think]

@RichardY I have to learn about how all of that would work because the stupid school system never explains how resources and having land even works. 

[Forestluv]

23 hours ago, Gidiot said:

@Serotoninluv most arguments I see online go along the lines of “ that business man has worked hard and earned that profit, taxing him and giving it to the poor is literally theft.” 

I’ve seen that argument as well. The two key parts are “worked hard” and earned. 

The “worked hard” part is irrelevant. Many lower and middle income people work as hard, or harder, than the businessman and do not make millions/billions. In terms if hard work, it would be impossible to justify the income. The businesses man would need to work 10,000 times harder - there are not enough hours in the day.

One could say the business man offers more “value”, yet that would be hard to justify the extreme disparity. Is he providing as much value as 10,000 of his employees?  

The term “earn” is a highly relative term. People may say “he earned it” - assuming that “earn” is an objective universal term. Yet if we take a closer look at the businessman’s practices and as what it means to “earn” - it may lead to interesting discoveries. 

[Bodigger]

On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 10:53 PM, Revolutionary Think said:

The finger doesn't have the ability to point at itself 

What we don't realize is that when we point, three fingers are pointing back at us, so we hide them behind the palm as to deceive ourselves.

[Bodigger]

On ‎8‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 0:39 AM, Serotoninluv said:

The term “earn” is a highly relative term. People may say “he earned it” - assuming that “earn” is an objective universal term. Yet if we take a closer look at the businessman’s practices and as what it means to “earn” - it may lead to interesting discoveries. 

I think there is something to earning what we have.  I have given this some thought, and I think BI would be a disaster, because it is being administrated in the native communities and I live amongst them.  I see many of them with addiction issues and when the money is spent they resort to stealing until the next check comes.  I also think this may have something to do with where the community is on SD, as some of you have already stated.

[Revolutionary Think]

2 hours ago, Bodigger said:

I see many of them with addiction issues and when the money is spent they resort to stealing until the next check comes.

What about the people who's jobs were automated away and they don't have addiction issues. So you'll let the honest hard working people suffer just because some people have addiction issues? 

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, Bodigger said:

I think there is something to earning what we have. 

What does “earning” mean? Imagine a business owner that makes millions of dollars. From one perspective, he worked hard to organize his employees and clients and steer the company toward profits. Yet he also profited off of others’ work. The business-owner profited off publically-funded education of his employees. The business owner is utilizing publicly-funded infrastructure, such as highways, to deliver his product. From this perspective, he is not earning it. He should not keep all the profits, since he didn’t earn a portion of it - it should go back to the public that earned it. Similarly, drug companies profit off of publically-funded research conducted in academic institutions. Have the drug companies “earned” these profits?

Similarly, consider a CEO from a bank that works his ass off 80 hours a week. Yet most of his work is spent trying to convince middle-class homeowners to carry more credit cards and refinance their homes into bad mortgages. The CEO and stockholders will profit by taking advantage of the vulnerable. Is this “earning it”? From one perspective, yes. But it’s not as simple as he worked hard and earned it.

I was traveling abroad in Europe and noticed that small groups of teenagers would play with a soccer ball near a tourist and distract the tourist, so another teenager could sneak behind them and pickpocket them. These teenagers were highly skilled at this. They obviously worked very hard to build skills and work together as a team. Would you say they are “earning” their income? From one perspective they are earning it. Yet we could also start to add qualifiers to what “earn” means. The point is that there is no object “earning”. It is a relative term and there are lots of nuances. 

[Bodigger]

@Revolutionary Think I'm not saying some, I'm saying many, more than 50%.  1 out of 4 babies are born addicted to alcohol/drugs.  These are communities which need help, not a hand out.  Why do you think so many people in Hollywood are addicts.  The answer is not, "Well, if they just had money to survive," they have plenty of money, they need as help as well.  I think jobs are more important because people are more grateful for the money when they work for it.  Wages are actually going up in my area due to the amount of jobs.  Employers are competing for employees and the best way to do this is by paying them more.

I am interesting in seeing areas where we have thrown money at something and it fixed it.

[Revolutionary Think]

https://www.thersa.org/discover/publications-and-articles/rsa-blogs/2017/10/ubi-mental-health-and-economic-growth  

[Bodigger]

@Revolutionary Think This article by Vishal will make people feel better about BI in theory.  However, like I said, it being done now and doesn't seem to be helping.  Again, I think in communities of different SD's it is plausible, but for now it should tabled or experimented in a smaller community with a different SD.

@Serotoninluv Earn is verb which means to obtain in return for labor or services.  Or am I missing the conscious meaning LOL.  I think profit sharing for employees is great for incentive achievements.

[Forestluv]

8 hours ago, Bodigger said:

 

@Serotoninluv Earn is verb which means to obtain in return for labor or services.  

What counts as “labor” or “service”?

The teenagers playing soccer and pickpocketing tourists seemed to obtain a return for their labor. 

Did the banking CEO that pushed toxic loans earn his millions as a return for service? From the perspective of the banker, he provided a service and earned a return. They even said this in Senate hearings. From the perspective of the famil that declared bankruptcy, it wasn’t a service at all - it was a fraudulent scam.

These terms are relative depending on context and perspective.

[Revolutionary Think]

4 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Did the banking CEO that pushed toxic loans earn his millions as a return for service?

THIS!

[Bodigger]

20 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

What counts as “labor” or “service”?

The teenagers playing soccer and pickpocketing tourists seemed to obtain a return for their labor. 

Did the banking CEO that pushed toxic loans earn his millions as a return for service? From the perspective of the banker, he provided a service and earned a return. They even said this in Senate hearings. From the perspective of the famil that declared bankruptcy, it wasn’t a service at all - it was a fraudulent scam.

These terms are relative depending on context and perspective.

Okay, I think I understand.....so what I see as earn is basically what the teenagers see as earn.  Got it.

With that being said along with the bank CEO you would advocate taking money from me, which I earned (The way I see it) and passing it off to everyone who is a citizen of the U.S. or do they need to be a citizen?

[Revolutionary Think]

This is why things like UBI are so important 

  

[Bodigger]

@Revolutionary Think I can empathize with this, my mother has MS.  So government has fudged things up again, and the answer is more government?  People in need like this, were helped many years ago by other people.  Whether it was church communities, private organizations, or individuals.  I think this was a more efficient, cost effective, and less corrupt way of doing things.  In my experience helping others also helps us have serenity in life, and isn't that part of consciousness?  For instance, AA was formed by two men and their wives with no help from government.  It has helped a billion people since it's conception and nobody was forced to give them anything.  People helping people, How beautiful is that.....

Giving individuals 10 grand a year will cost the tax payers 16 grand per person through the government.  Not efficient, never has been, never will.