Basic income

[Revolutionary Think]

@Leo Gura It's all in good fun 

[Bodigger]

@Serotoninluv Your statement helped me understand SD a little more.  I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the concept of BI, in fact, I think it is something worth discussing further.  However, few people in this world have conscious ideas and thoughts about what is good for the collective.  Imagine a yellow state/country surrounded by blue and red states/countries.  Would this be conceivable or lasting.  IMO it would be better to be an example of orange and influence blue to orange, and then to green and so on.  Wouldn't it be disastrous if things move too quickly?

[Bodigger]

8 hours ago, Revolutionary Think said:

Yup all a bunch of mind games. It's not just Politics Politics... it's family politics, community politics, homeowners association politics, and.... even the Politics with in yourself like when you think someone is a jerk when they talk too much but, then you get excited and you talk too much and not even realize you're being just like that other person. It's mirco and macro levels. 

 

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Revolutionary Think Don't forget Actualized Forum politics

This is why I think the politics forum is good.  Like it or not, all of us are in the middle of all sorts of politics.

[Forestluv]

16 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

@Serotoninluv Your statement helped me understand SD a little more.  I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the concept of BI, in fact, I think it is something worth discussing further.  However, few people in this world have conscious ideas and thoughts about what is good for the collective.  Imagine a yellow state/country surrounded by blue and red states/countries.  Would this be conceivable or lasting.  IMO it would be better to be an example of orange and influence blue to orange, and then to green and so on.  Wouldn't it be disastrous if things move too quickly?

I think you make a really good point about having conscious ideas and thoughts about what is good for the collective. Everyone has their own self biased ideas about what is good for the collective, including myself. I may like to think my ideas are “more conscious” and better at a collective level. This can cloud one’s ability to see different perspectives and nuances. For example, China uses a lot of surveillance for the “social good”. In parts of China, they have sophisticated AI and facial recognition. There are over 200 million cameras in China monitoring people’s behavior and assigning social scores - one’s score is a measure of how trustworthy they are and affects someone’s level of freedom and access to resources. To me, this seems like a way to control people and maintain power in the communist party. Yet some people think it’s good for the collective and helps promote personal responsibility and public safety. From one perspective it’s done out of love for what one sees as good for the collective welfare. . . At times, it can be difficult to distinguish what is “progress”. It can be relative, nuanced and self-biased. When I look at social conflicts in other countries, I see it from an outsider’s perspective. Yet when I look at conflicts in the U.S. it is much harder to see it from an outsider’s perspective. 

[Bodigger]

20 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

There are over 200 million cameras in China monitoring people’s behavior and assigning social scores - one’s score is a measure of how trustworthy they are and affects someone’s level of freedom and access to resources. To me, this seems like a way to control people and maintain power in the communist party. Yet some people think it’s good for the collective and helps promote personal responsibility and public safety. From one perspective it’s done out of love for what one sees as good for the collective welfare. . . At times, it can be difficult to distinguish what is “progress”. It can be relative, nuanced and self-biased. When I look at social conflicts in other countries, I see it from an outsider’s perspective. Yet when I look at conflicts in the U.S. it is much harder to see it from an outsider’s perspective. 

This is a statement I can agree with.  I think forcing anyone into anything is not long term, because they will find a way around the camera.  Do the cameras teach people to be accountable, no.  They tell people to have proper behavior (behavior chosen by the government) around the cameras.  Take the cameras away and what was thought to be growth is now gone.  Empowering people to have good behavior would be better.  How do we empower people?  By working on ourselves first and then by example.  Power vs Force by Dr. Hawkins is a book which talks about this.

[Revolutionary Think]

4 hours ago, Bodigger said:

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the concept of BI, in fact, I think it is something worth discussing further.

This is progress you're open to discussing it... In my previous post where I talked about Anarchy being a clusterfuck look at the ego backlash on this guy when the entire community didn't like the idea of it and I didn't even want to talk to him anymore. Then he apologized for going off the rails. 

[Bodigger]

@Revolutionary Think Wow, forgiveness is good but forgetting.....in my experience when I tucked things away and forgot about them it came back to me in anger, because I didn't process it, let go and learn.  That guy sounds like me two years ago when I was uncomfortable in my own skin.  I'm still sheading that skin, but growth comes to me every time I let go, of my ego.

[Revolutionary Think]

@Bodigger I'm going to be honest with you. I sarcastically made fun of him and insulted him here and there too but, I deleted those comments because they seemed in bad taste and I was trying to deescalate the situation. These people are so entrenched in their "live free or die" paradigm that they go berserk when you challenge it. I'm glad that you're letting go of your ego and shedding your skin. I see the same kind of opinions that you have that are similar to the opinions these people have. On the other hand at least you're not the same person you were two years ago and if people are really growing no one should be the same person they were two years ago. So are you saying not to forget as in remember that what you did wasn't good and use that as a reference? I also got this guy to take a minute and to self reflect in a private chat. 

[Bodigger]

39 minutes ago, Revolutionary Think said:

@Bodigger So are you saying not to forget as in remember that what you did wasn't good and use that as a reference?

In a way. 

I like to remember where I was (Reflection), know where I am (Being in the moment), and give thought to where I want to be (Follow the light which brings me Growth).

In the past, Remembering things would be  like getting my ass kicked by an ant.  Reflecting on things gives me humility, for I was not only following the devil, I was the devil.  Therefore, I am no better than the air, God allows me to take into my lungs.

[CreamCat]

On 8/15/2019 at 8:51 PM, Leo Gura said:

Sounds nice in theory but they will lobby against it and smear you as a communist welfare queen.

You can start with a low amount of basic income. Alaska is doing it.

Basic income can start its life as a supplement to minimum wage. Instead of raising minimum wage incrementally, increase basic income incrementally.

For example, instead of raising minimum wage from 12$ per hour to 15$ per hour, give basic income commensurate to 3$ per hour. Assuming 40-hour work week, the work hours are 160 hours per month. This translates into 3 x 160 = 480$ per month.

Edited August 17, 2019 by CreamCat

[Leo Gura]

If you want 12 solid hours of the best sort of cringe entertainment, watch this playlist of Sam Seder unmasking the foolishness of libertarians. He debates and debunks all their top arguments:

There are some really hilarious moments in that playlist. Just ignorance so thick all you can do is laugh.

It gives you a good window into the libertarian mind.

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, Revolutionary Think said:

This is progress you're open to discussing it... In my previous post where I talked about Anarchy being a clusterfuck look at the ego backlash on this guy when the entire community didn't like the idea of it and I didn't even want to talk to him anymore. Then he apologized for going off the rails. 

These kinds of emotional reactions are a dead-giveaway of dogma. People react like that when they are defending an ideology. There is nothing logical about libertarian ideology despite any appeals they might make to logic. All the logic is a backwards-rationalization to justify one's dogmas.

[Revolutionary Think]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

People react like that when they are defending an ideology. There is nothing logical about libertarian ideology despite any appeals they might make to logic. All the logic is a self-deception.

The finger doesn't have the ability to point at itself 

[Forestluv]

9 hours ago, Revolutionary Think said:

This is progress you're open to discussing it... In my previous post where I talked about Anarchy being a clusterfuck look at the ego backlash on this guy when the entire community didn't like the idea of it and I didn't even want to talk to him anymore. Then he apologized for going off the rails. 

I’m so grateful that I’m not a mod on that forum . . .

[Revolutionary Think]

3 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Do you think an unconditional BI is beneficial or a BI that is linked to work - as an incentive to work?

The UBI communities get will create work because if people don't have work they wont have the money to spend. The job creators stuff is bullshit that's trickle down garbage. Work is created by customers not bosses if there is no demand there is no work when people get the money there will be demand and there will be work. You're thinking about this the wrong way. 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Revolutionary Think

[Forestluv]

18 minutes ago, Revolutionary Think said:

The UBI communities get will create work because if people don't have work they wont have the money to spend. The job creators stuff is bullshit that's trickle up garbage. Work is created by customers not bosses if there is no demand there is no work when people get the money there will be demand and there will be work. You're thinking about this the wrong way. 

Just to rephrase this. . . You are saying that UBI will put more money into communities and that money will create customers, demand and jobs. For example, I live in a poor community. With UBI, people will have basic income to spend that will increase customers ad demand in my community. More people will be hired and new business will open up to meet that demand.

 

[Revolutionary Think]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

Just to rephrase this. . . You are saying that UBI will put more money into communities and that money will create customers, demand and jobs. For example, I lie in poor community. With UBI, people will have basic income to spend that will increase customers ad demand in my communities. More people will be hired and new business will open up to meet that demand.

Bingo! 

[Forestluv]

@Revolutionary Think If BI is funded through the ultra wealthy, this is essentially transferring high end wealth into poorer communities. One thing I find interesting is that most Americans are cool with CEOs and banksters making obscene profits - even when that involves employees with low wages, poor working conditions and lack of health care. Even when the CEOs and baksters are unethical and profit through fraud and scams, most people don’t get too upset. Yet when government money goes toward welfare, a lot of people get extremely upset calling it government handouts to lazy people. Why is there such a strong visceral reaction to welfare, yet hardly any reaction to getting screwed over by unethical CEOs and Banksters? 

[Revolutionary Think]

@Serotoninluv You're preaching to the choir man. Where are you from? 

[Revolutionary Think]

4 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

As for the main conversation at hand, I don't have an opinion - know next to nothing about how UBI could work to benefit or harm people's way of life.  It sounds like a good idea.

Just do some more research on it. Look at  it from an objective point of view and try your best not to let ego get in the way. Good luck.