A science thought experiment- where does matter come from?

[Ibn Sina]

This is not a meditation/consciousness topic but it has something to do with how does matter originate , I am curious about what people have to say

May be there's a correct scientific answer to this question, I don't  know it, if you know you can share.

So here's my thought experiment. 

We know that trees grow from the soil in the earth and from there we can make books. Let's say we planted trees, made books from them, and sent them to a specific well demarcated place in outerspace which we can be observed in telescope. We continued this process of planting trees, making books and sending storing them to space, for let's say 10,000 years.

At one point , we may form a big mass in space whose mass is bigger than the earth itself. So it seems earth has given rise to a huge mass that is larger than itself.

So what is going on here. Would this be possible? Is earth creating matter itself?

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Leo Gura]

Haha, this is just a basic physics question.

The Earth shrinks every time you send objects into outer space. If you send a trillion pounds of books to outer space, the mass of the Earth will decrease by a trillion pounds. Eventually the Earth would become so small that it could no longer hold a tree or a rocket. But you'd be dead long before that happened.

Plants leech matter from the Earth. They don't get it out of thin air.

[traveler]

Hahah that interesting imagery. I don't particularly have an answer for this. Many spiritual teachers would say that we never encounter anything called matter, only the experience of it. Rupert Spira talks about this subject. 

[Girzo]

48 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Plants leech matter from the Earth. They don't get it out of thin air.

Actually, plants get their mass from the air. 

[ajasatya]

15 minutes ago, Girzo said:

Actually, plants get their mass from the air. 

Metals + water from the soil and Carbone from the air (and also some water due to water condensation and osmose).

[Leo Gura]

Air is part of the Earth.

And plants are mostly water.

It's all one interconnected system.

[Truth Addict]

I don't believe in "conservation of mass and energy".

To me, it looks like mass is always increasing, and so does energy.

[Leo Gura]

@Truth Addict Well, try to see how many tomato plants you can grow in one pot before they stop growing due to depletion of soil nutrients. It will be less than you think.

Farmers use fertilizer and crop rotation for a reason.

You can't just keep growing plants on a plot of land forever. If only life was so easy.

[Truth Addict]

@Leo Gura

Maybe because that's an isolated system.

[Ibn Sina]

Okay, but what if we replace plants with mammalian and human bones. We send animal bones instead of plants. We could  make a planet made up of calcium. Again, there is the question, whether it is possible to make infinite amount of calcium because of continuous reproduction and skeletons to outer space.

I mean, even if dead human skeletons were sent to outerspace, humans could reproduce again, so  the mass comes back, how would the mass of the earth shrink and the earth become inhabitable? 

I think I got the answer on my own. Skeleton means calcium, which is a nutrient in the soil.  If we throw the calcium into outerspace, that means the calcium content in the earth is reduced. That means less calcium in the plant products, animals don't get their required amount of calcium so they get bone deformities hence become extinct and life forms cease to exist. 

At the end, it seems to show how much living beings are connected to the earth. If we transport  living things and stuffs (dead or alive) away to outer space, we destroy the earth itself because the earth is not seperate from them earth is them. 

Given that the mass of a human skeleton is about 5kg, it's very difficult to make a planet that is of the size of the earth.

Here's a back of the envelope calculation  (just for fun, may not  be strictly accurate)

The mass of the earth is  at power of 10^24 kg, so that is our goal.

Let's say there was a world organization which decided that from now on all bones of dead people and mammals will be sent to outerspace. Also, let's assume birth rate and death rate are such that the human population no matter how much birth or death happens is  steady at 8 billion. 

8 billions humans *5 kg weight of skeleton ( = 40,0, 000,000,000 = 4 * 10^12. This is the rate at which every rocket launch adds to the skeleton planet.

Assume that the world life expectancy on average is 70 years , so every 70 years plus 4* 10^12 mass is added.

Our goal is to bring the mass from the power of 10^12 to 10^13. 

10^11 * x = 10^12

So, x = 10

In 3 launches we get - ( (4 (1st launch) + 4 (2nd launch) + 4 (3rd launch)= 12) *10^12= 12  *10^12= 1.2 ^13.

So in 3 launches we raised the power from 10^12 to 10^13.

3 launches means about 300 years (assuming an average human lives for about 80 years. If the mortality rate is high, the number can shrink)

Our next goal will be to move from 10^14 to 10^15.

In first case, the x was 10 so we reached there are at about 3 launches (3  *3 is 9)

In next case x is 100, so we will need about 30 launches which means about 30,000 years.

But how much time will it take to move from 10^23 mass to 10^24 mass of the skeleton planet?

10^11 *x= 10^24 ,

x= 10^24-11 = 10^13,

10^13 is the number that we have to reach , with every rocket launches that carry the mass at order of 10^11. In first case we could bring 10^11 to 10^12 in about 3 launches but now instead of 10, the  x is 10^13. When we were working for 10^11 to 10^12, it was like ( (1st launch + 2nd launch + 3rd launch = 10) * 10^11), but now it is like ((1st launch + 2nd launch + ........ xth launch  = 10^13)*10^11).

 

10^13/4 =  The value of x (in the above equation) / The number that is added in every launch next to 10^11 =The number of rocket launches that brings the power from 10^23 to 10^24 = 2.5 *10^12 rocket launches, and remember that each rocket launch happens about every 100 years, so by this time the sun might have turned into a dwarf planet or something.

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Girzo]

@Ibn Sina what the hell are you thinking about? 

[RendHeaven]

@Ibn Sina Dude too much mental masturbation.

If you sent human parts into space - such that the mass of the earth is eclipsed - the project could only be sustained if you have sufficient food (energy) for people to consume.

Where does the food come from? Earth. Lol.

It's not like humans just continue creating each other out of nowhere forever. Our mass is gained from our environment.

Think of it this way; for however many bones leave earth, the earth loses some "food."

No matter what you send into space, Earth will be "losing" something in return. No way around this. You just don't fathom this because Earth is really pretty freakin big.

Now, this whole thought experiment is a wild mess because you are assuming "matter" as an apriori axiom which you cannot truthfully do if you actually did some existential investigation.

But even if we actually assume "matter" as a "thing," we are still bound by the laws of physics, which undermines all of your ideas.

Sorry!

Edited August 15, 2019 by RendHeaven

[Nahm]

On 8/15/2019 at 5:11 AM, Ibn Sina said:

This is not a meditation/consciousness topic but it has something to do with how does matter originate , I am curious about what people have to say

May be there's a correct scientific answer to this question, I don't  know it, if you know you can share.

So here's my thought experiment. 

We know that trees grow from the soil in the earth and from there we can make books. Let's say we planted trees, made books from them, and sent them to a specific well demarcated place in outerspace which we can be observed in telescope. We continued this process of planting trees, making books and sending storing them to space, for let's say 10,000 years.

At one point , we may form a big mass in space whose mass is bigger than the earth itself. So it seems earth has given rise to a huge mass that is larger than itself.

So what is going on here. Would this be possible? Is earth creating matter itself?

 

 

There’s deep wisdom within you already, but you’re stifling it with write offs. Notice how you ruled out the actual answer before stating your question. 

It’s like saying, don’t answer anything about cows, but, where does beef actually come from?

[inFlow]

Well yeah the earth is likely creating mass. Volcanoes always erupt creating islands, do you think the earth inside is getting hollow? How come we can find dinosaur bones beneath several meters of ground. Where did that ground come from? The earth is getting bigger, no one knows why, but thats the magic of this reality.

Also there is no material matter in this universe. It's just mind matter, which is something else.

[Angelite]

@Ibn Sina I have thought about something similar a few days ago

Can a human being create something out of nothing? 

Answer me!  Haha

Edited August 27, 2019 by Angelite

[Aeris]

I love this kind of topic

@inFlow I bet you're right on the idea that another model will replace the ideas of "cells/matter" or even the model of "conversation of energy"
apparently at a sub atomic level, particles are " chaotic " means they are not "stable", even non visible, there is "nothing" ( to us, cause we lack "tools" maybe ).
and that's 100% sur that we are still ignorant, so I bet you physician, let's try to prove that the universe is another form of energy than just "matter/cells".

sure there is still someone like Einstein that will pop out those next 10 years, follow my prediction.

[Angelite]

58 minutes ago, Aeris said:

I love this kind of topic

@inFlow I bet you're right on the idea that another model will replace the ideas of "cells/matter" or even the model of "conversation of energy"
apparently at a sub atomic level, particles are " chaotic " means they are not "stable", even non visible, there is "nothing" ( to us, cause we lack "tools" maybe ).
and that's 100% sur that we are still ignorant, so I bet you physician, let's try to prove that the universe is another form of energy than just "matter/cells".

sure there is still someone like Einstein that will pop out those next 10 years, follow my prediction.

My definition of "nothing" is literal. Not "invisible".