Strategic Voting

[Bno]

@Etherial Cat The thing with this madness is also that each election the neoliberal party shifts more and more to the right while the fascist moves even further right.

[silene]

This is a good discussion, it's helped remind me how  negative and fear-based most politics is. We end up with a situation where the 2 most powerful parties have no interest in changing the system so we get locked into an apparently minimal choice for the voters. It requires a powerful disruptive energy to change that, but I'm doubtful if even Brexit is powerful enough, perhaps climate change (if real) will do it? The other consequence is that the alliance and deal making which goes with proportional systems, has to occur within the political parties, in a FPTP (first past the post) system. This is why we have such internal party wranglings in my country (beyond the reach of ordinary voters).

Edited December 9, 2019 by silene

[Emerald]

@Etherial Cat I'll definitely take what you said into consideration. In American politics, you know that it's basically going to come down to two candidates. And I always hated that and wanted to undermine that system.

And up until Donald Trump (who has many fascist qualities), it was all just a bunch of Neo-Liberals. It didn't much matter who you picked because you knew things would basically run the same way. It was Coke or Pepsi. So, I haven't yet seen this strategy employed because you know that both the candidates are going to be corporatist Neo-Liberal center-right politicians. 

So, when Donald Trump was up for election and he was using his demagoguery against Mexicans, Muslims, and women, my response was to vote for Hillary Clinton at all costs even though I intensely dislike her. And that's because she would be the same kind of bad we'd always had. And Trump would be the same kind of bad plus much much worse for those especially in vulnerable communities.

And my way of reasoning was that it was just too big of a risk not to vote strategically. Like, if I voted for Jill Stein instead (who was more aligned to my values and would help me protest the two-party system), I would not be able to participate in doing everything in my power to keep a Fascist out of office.

And I would always wonder, relative to his actions (especially separating families and keeping immigrants in detention camps where they're dying) if I could have done something to prevent that as opposed to voting for Jill Stein because she matches my values more.

So, I probably still err on the side of "prevent the Fascist coming to power at all costs" if that's a genuine threat (and it was), over the vote your choice regardless of outcomes and strategy. But I'll consider what you said because it could be used strategically against any disturbances to the status quo.

And I am also very wary of anyone who is saying "Vote blue no matter who". I think that's a terrible take that perpetuates a lot of corruption in the Democratic party. 

That said, if all things stand to remain the same, I recommend voting your values instead of voting on who will likely win. So, for example, if it would have been Hillary Clinton vs Jeb Bush or something like that, I'd definitely vote third party. But I wouldn't feel comfortable taking a risk on letting a Fascist win because the vote is always super close between the two candidates. That's why the two-party system sucks.

Edit: In a nutshell, because of our two party system, there isn't going to be a party that's out and out the Fascist party, like many European countries. For example, in Hungary there is the Jobik party (Fascist) and there are three other main parties. So, I could see, coming from that angle how the far right party's potential to gain power being the boogeyman to keep people with the Neo-Liberal status quo, and I will consider that perspective since it's different than what I'm used to in America.

In America, for all my life up until Donald Trump, you've only gotten Neo Liberals in both parties who are basically Center-Right and there's very little difference between the two. So, I'm coming from a place of not experiencing the strategy of having one party be Fascist to encourage people toward Neo-Liberals, because up until now it's all been about the same. And if a Fascist gets the nomination in the Republican party, there is about a 50% chance of them getting elected in the first place, and that number only rises more when people ignore the threat and vote their values instead of voting strategically. 

So, it's a difficult situation when faced with such high stakes.

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Emerald

[Ariesleith]

@Girzo ty that was interesting 

[Emerald]

@Etherial Cat Your perspective has definitely given me some things to think about in terms of how this all plays out in a more diverse system, which gives me more context for understanding our system. And it may well be that your hypothesis is true that all systems will devolve similarly once the populace fatigues of the NeoLiberal corruption... and the split will be between those who support Fascism and others who vote Neo-Liberal just to avoid Fascism. That is what spawned Trump in the first place. People wanted change... and Donald Trump was definitely different.

Right now, it's leading up to primary time in the US. And I'm using this time to put Neo-Liberal politicians feet to the fire and calling them out. And those crying "Blue no matter who" and urging progressives not to criticize the Neo Liberal Democrats much... because "We have to beat Trump". They are really running wild with that "We have to unify to beat Donald Trump" motto, while promising more of the same. And many on the center left are really not thinking strategically about things. Now is the time to weed out the weak ones since we have a few progressives among the hopefuls. We need Biden to be called out on his Neo-Liberalism, racism, shitty policy proposals, his handsy-ness, and his cognitive issues. We need Kamala Harris (who has since dropped out) to be called out for her despicable record as a prosecutor and all the things she's done to prop up the private prison industry. We need Pete Buttigieg to be called out for his issues with gentrification in the town he was mayor in and him being bought off by big money interests.

That said, if it comes down to the general election, I don't want to just throw the election back to Trump (who could do a ton more damage in his last term) if any of those jokers secure the nomination. Which again, puts me in the same bind. So, I've been donating to Bernie Sanders' campaign and trying to support that in any way that I can, so that I don't have to make that decision. And I'll definitely weigh in your perspective since it gives me a bit more of an idea how things can eventuate from voting this way. After Trump, I'm imagining the Republicans will just get more and more Fascist. So, maybe, smaller price tags now to avoid bigger price tags later. But I'm still not sure.