Is "Toxic Masculinity" an accurate term?

[brugluiz]

I understand that patriarchy is a problem, that many men took a lot advantage of women during history, but I still can't digest the "Toxic Masculinity" terminology the way it's portrayed nowadays.

I used to hang out with maybe Green guys who were into feminism and into very woo-woo stuff and I also used to go to men's circles. When I tried to talk about Shadow Work with these guys, they generally remained quiet or said things like: "the light is the answer, I hold with the light because it's better." Maybe they don't understand the idea of Shadow Work, but I have the feeling they don't like the idea of integrating their shadows. It's like if you integrate your shadow, you become a toxic man.

I think it's a huge problem that we face nowadays and no wonder guys like Jordan Peterson are getting famous. We have a huge lack of masculine figures. I see these Green guys abusing of spiritual substances and complaining about the government all the time (they generally hate Bolsonaro and Trump).

I don't think Bolsonaro and Trump are overly good guys because they display a lot of toxic masculinity, but they are also a huge opportunity to integrate our shadow. Instead of cursing Bolsonaro or Trump, it's far better to analyse their behaviours in a way that can benefit us.

I wonder if these men's circles that spreads the terminology "Toxic Masculinity" are really doing some good. They defend the idea of being a social justice warrior, so they ask you to alarm other men about their toxic masculinity and give them the example they should follow. I find it really obnoxious.

The "Toxic Masculinity" terminology seems to be used nowadays for masculinity in general, instead of a thing that really harms women and the world.

[Forestluv]

13 minutes ago, brugluiz said:

The "Toxic Masculinity" terminology seems to be used nowadays for masculinity in general

I regularly express masculinity and have never been accused of being toxically masculine. As well, none of my male friends are accused of being toxically masculine. 

I’m curious what you consider “masculinity in general” to be.

[Shadowraix]

Toxic masculinity is referred to things that are perceived as masculine but end up being toxic. Masculinity is often largely a societal perception. Men don't cry is one example of a toxic form masculinity can be expressed. 

It's more about the way it is expressed than it itself. 

[brugluiz]

15 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I regularly express masculinity and have never been accused of being toxically masculine. As well, none of my male friends are accused of being toxically masculine. 

I’m curious what you consider “masculinity in general” to be.

I consider general masculinity being pro-active, taking risks, taking the lead, working on your physical strength, being a ruler, respecting hierarchies, being rational and being a warrior (it requires some emotional detachment), but I think it's also being kind, express your emotions even through crying (as @Shadowraix said). having empathy and being an artist. In my vision, it's a very integrated male, but he still have some characteristics that may trigger other people.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, brugluiz said:

The "Toxic Masculinity" terminology seems to be used nowadays for masculinity in general

 

25 minutes ago, brugluiz said:

I consider general masculinity being pro-active, taking risks, taking the lead, working on your physical strength, being a ruler, respecting hierarchies, being rational and being a warrior (it requires some emotional detachment), but I think it's also being kind, express your emotions even through crying (as @Shadowraix said). having empathy and being an artist. 

I wouldn’t consider any of those traits to inherently be “toxic masculinity”. Yet I can see in some contexts, something like “being a ruler” can get out of hand and become toxic.

Do you think in some situations “taking the lead” or “being a ruler” can be toxic masculinity? Doesn’t it depend on the situation? 

What if a group of women at my work were organizing a retirement party for one of our co-workers. I notice there are no men in the group, so I decide to insert myself and express masculinity by taking the lead and being a ruler. I tell them we aren’t going to do the party that way. We are going to do it by my lead and rule. No flowers. No sissy farewell cards. No soft music. I want a pool party with lots of booze, drugs, women in bikinis and rock-n-roll music. I’m the masculine man leading and ruling you women and that’s how it is. In this situation, would you say that taking the lead and being a ruler would be toxic?

 

[brugluiz]

3 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

 

I’ve never heard anyone refer to those traits as being “toxic masculinity”. Yet I can see in some contexts, something like “being a ruler” can get out of hand and become toxic.

Maybe your country has a different culture. But, for example, the Gillette video We Believe: The Best Men Can be portrays as a toxic a man who just approaches a woman.

[Forestluv]

39 minutes ago, brugluiz said:

But, for example, the Gillette video We Believe: The Best Men Can be portrays as a toxic a man who just approaches a woman.

The phrase “just approaching a woman” sounds so innocent. “Gosh, all I did was approach her. . .”

It is context dependent. In some situations, approaching a woman could be very romantic. In some situations, approaching a woman could be heroic. In some situations, approaching a woman can be toxic.

Try to imagine this from the woman’s POV. Imagine you are an attractive 25 y.o. woman and you have to endure more than 10 unwelcomed sexual advances from men everyday. At work, in restaurants, at parties, while shopping. . . Many of these advances are from creepy guys trying to get laid. Some give you annoying winks, some call you “baby”, some approach you with physical intimidation. Some rub themself on you. Even when you try to show disinterest by moving away, they persist. It feels icky and it happens 10+ times a day. It sucks. Now imagine yourself as this woman walking home after work, similar to the Gillette commercial. There are a group of men catcalling at you and saying you have a nice ass. This feels really uncomfortable to you, so you try to walk by them quickly and just get away from them. One of the men follows you and approaches you saying how cute you are baby - let’s get together and have some fun. .From the perspective of the woman, this situation is clearly toxic masculinity. If I saw this play out, I hope I would have the masculine courage to step in and tell the guy to back off. 

A question I have for you: can you tell me some of the precautions you take on a daily basis to protect yourself from sexual harassment and assault?

[brugluiz]

3 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

The phrase “just approaching a woman” sounds so innocent. “Gosh, all I did was approach her. . .”

It is context dependent. In some situations, approaching a woman could be very romantic. In some situations, approaching a woman could be heroic. In some situations, approaching a woman can be toxic”.

Try to imagine it fro the woman’s POV. Imagine you are an attractive 25 y.o. woman and you have to endure more than 10 unwelcomed sexual advances from men everyday. At work, in restaurants, at parties, while shopping. Many of these advances are from creepy guys trying to get laid. Some give you annoying winks, some call you “baby”, some approach you with physical intimidation. Even when you try to show disinterest by moving away, they persist. It feels icky and it happens 10+ times a day. It sucks. Now imagine yourself as this woman walking home after work, similar to the Gillette Commercial. There are a group of men catcalling at you and saying you have a nice ass. This feels really uncomfortable to you, so you try to walk by them quickly and just get away from them. One of the men follows you and approaches you saying how cute you are, baby and let’s get together. . . From the perspective of the woman, this situation is clearly toxic masculinity. If I saw this play out, I hope I would have the masculine courage to step in and tell the guy to back off. 

I don't mean this kind of approach at all. By the way, in the Gillette commercial, they just put a man who wants to approach a woman and another dude comes to him blocking his passage (as if he was going to abuse her or whatever). You can't predict what a man is going to do that way. No wonder the Gillette commercial got 1.500.000 dislikes on YouTube.

So, that's the problem. In this example, approaching women = toxic masculinity, intead of approaching women with abusive behaviors = toxic masculinity.

[tenta]

"I understand that patriarchy is a problem"

 

This is where you have failed and blinded yourself to female privilege

[Leo Gura]

It's the perfect term to describe PUA, RedPill, Incels, alt-right, MGTOW, gun nuts, etc.

All you gotta do is visit one of those forums and you will be bombarded with it.

It's when man-children try to act masculine without understanding what real masculinity is.

[NoSelfSelf]

@Leo Gura whats real masculinity in your opinion?

[brugluiz]

1 hour ago, tenta said:

"I understand that patriarchy is a problem"

 

This is where you have failed and blinded yourself to female privilege

Please, explain it better.

33 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's the perfect term to describe PUA, RedPill, Incels, alt-right, MGTOW, gun nuts, etc.

All you gotta do is visit one of those forums and you will be bombarded with it.

It's when man-children try to act masculine without understanding what real masculinity is.

I understand such movements have a lot of toxicity, but they also hold some truth. It's visible that feminism has gone too far and many women are psychologically (some physically) castrating their sons and few people address this problem.

From your video about How To Be A Man, your tip about having sex with a lot of women would be seen as sexist by many feminist men and women. I'm not saying your tip is not a good idea, but it may disturb some people.

For example, the topic 5 of this article here https://brasil.elpais.com/brasil/2019/01/22/estilo/1548175107_753307.html says it's a characteristic of toxic masculinity this kind of "pressure" of having sex with many women (the article is in Brazilian Portuguese, but maybe you can understand some stuff about it if you use Google Translate).

And man, if a guy wants to have sex with women, he needs to approach (at least, most sex I had happened just when I approached women).

31 minutes ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@Leo Gura whats real masculinity in your opinion?

 

[DnoReally]

@Leo Gura Do you think this still applies to what Owen/Julien are up to nowadays? I think they have evovled quite a bit, tho I always cringe wheny they quote eckhard tolle/osho

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, brugluiz said:

I don't mean this kind of approach at all. By the way, in the Gillette commercial, they just put a man who wants to approach a woman and another dude comes to him blocking his passage (as if he was going to abuse her or whatever). You can't predict what a man is going to do that way. No wonder the Gillette commercial got 1.500.000 dislikes on YouTube.

So, that's the problem. In this example, approaching women = toxic masculinity, intead of approaching women with abusive behaviors = toxic masculinity.

You missed the context.

Notice how your mind wants to control the context and the narrative. You are seeing it through your POV and want to define what toxic masculinity is. I asked you to see it through another POV and consider what toxic masculinity is from that POV. Yet you simply restated your POV.

And I’m still curious. . . Can you tell me some of the precautions you take everyday to protect yourself from sexual harassment and sexual assault? 

[brugluiz]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

You missed the context.

Notice how your mind wants to control the context and the narrative. You are seeing it through your POV and want to define what toxic masculinity is. I asked you to see it through another POV and consider what toxic masculinity is from that POV. Yet you simply restated your POV.

And I’m still curious. . . Can you tell me some of the precautions you take everyday to protect yourself from sexual harassment and sexual assault? 

Sorry, I just didn't notice your last question.

I just take some precautions on clubs that some gay people go to (some guys are really repulsive). It happened of women trying to harass me sometimes, but I wouldn't say it's a big deal (and it probably happens with a very low frequency if compared to women).

I tried the POV exercise, but I'm trying to understand what you want to teach me.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, brugluiz said:

I tried the POV exercise, but I'm trying to understand what you want to teach me.

Letting go of one’s own POV and really understanding another’s POV, expands the mind and reduces suffering due to attachment/identification and separation.

If you were a young attractive woman that had to deal with unwelcomed sexual advances from guys many times everyday and it made you feel uncomfortable and unsafe - do you think you would have the exact same opinion about masculine toxicity as you have now? Really try to imagine what it would feel like to be her and have to live with this everyday. If you can do this at a deeper level than the intellect, it will be mind expanding and you will be able to relate to a wider range of people. As well, one could directly ask women what’s it’s like and really try to understand her as if it was you. 

This isn’t an intellectual issue. You aren’t writing a thesis on this for school. This is a personal issue driven by emotions. You have a set of emotions that you are uncomfortable with. She also has a set of emotions that she is uncomfortable with. Try to imagine, experience and understand her feelings and what she has to go through.

Women are the ones who bear the brunt of toxic masculinity. It seems to me they should have a large say in what counts as toxic masculinity. They are the ones that have to deal with most of that crap. 

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@Leo Gura whats real masculinity in your opinion?

Too deep of a subject to explain here.

1 hour ago, DnoReally said:

@Leo Gura Do you think this still applies to what Owen/Julien are up to nowadays? I think they have evovled quite a bit, tho I always cringe wheny they quote eckhard tolle/osho

I have no idea what they're talking about nowadays. But I would assume it's still juvenile to some extent. I could be wrong since I don't watch them.

[Yog]

@brugluiz

Its a made up buzz-word no older than 40 years. People by themselves would have never came up with this phrase. It was placed into language. It didn't come in naturally, because it has no use, it is not real.  Thus it is not an accurate term, it doesn't describe anything.

So it is understandable why so many people share your confusion regarding this word.

It is always fueled by shadow material. It can not be otherwise. There will always be resistance towards shadow work.
sorrow......It is so sad to see the sorrow, that contraction of self, and you know there is nothing you can do about it, its in your face. You d want to slap them and then hug them. But you know you cant. Neither of those things. You'll end up in Jail. So yeees understand them, but do not act upon it much. It would be wise. Note that this word was placed, and people stumbled upon it, picked it up and are now suffering. It is a bad pair of glasses. You can rarely help anyone and will always get damaged or glued up in the process. Do not let it get close to interfering with your growth.  At least that is what I've seen.

Id say:
1. Forget about the word
2. Try to understand why they feel that way. Why they do all that stuff.
3. Wall your mind if needed, as things might get harsh and sticky.
   You can get in deep trouble in 5 mins.
   Also close your aura.
4. Ace what you do and love in life!
  

I keep these mind-walling notes in mind:

It is always used only for self serving ideological purposes. You will always be mislead.

You'll find that only toxic atmospheres find utility in this word. Blame/victim mentality is always at play.

It is best advised to keep distance with people that find it useful. You don't want to get tangled up in their mess. There will be a lot of negative vibes. And any form of chatting will turn into this.

It will stop existing, as the structures that do use it will collapse on themselves. Don't be there. Linking to previous point.

Do not behave as it exists, no one does, no one can You are just wasting your energies. Because it is not real, even the people that use it can not behave as it is real. Focus on other things.

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Yog

[Pav]

There is a positive and negative side to both masculinity and femininity. Your goal in this work is to cultivate the positive and then integrate these two poles within yourself so that they compliment each other (to transcend the dichotomy). David Deida has some good work on the masculine/feminine polarity. Keep in mind that David Deida uses stereotypical/exaggerated examples for teaching purposes, the reality for you will likely be something more balanced, say 60%M 40%F, you'll have to discover exactly what your balance is for yourself.

"Toxic masculinity" is certainly being used by certain individuals to push an ideological agenda. So don't let those ideas impact your growth. Positionalities such as modern day feminism and MGTOW/red pill are very toxic for your personal growth and for your relationships with others since they are very divisive and seek to pit men and women against one another. Hence they do not cultivate a positive relationship between the feminine and the masculine.

Men and women need to learn to come together in a positive way. The play between the masculine and feminine between two people can make for quite a special relationship. This means that you'll need to learn how interact with and attract women; integrate your own masculine and feminine (you cannot healthily disown either); learn to release your underlying neuroses (relationships are a vital point to do so since they tend to bring up your deep seated neuroses - read Letting Go by David Hawkins to learn how to surrender your negative energy); and cultivate love/joy within yourself so that you can spread this to others in your interactions. 

RSD have started to make some really great, high consciousness videos about how to interact positively with women in recent years. They also definitely know how to attract women, so I recommend checking them out.

Ultimately, social relationships, particularly intimate relationships, are about the spread of love, joy and peace. Seek to align yourself with this overarching goal. It won't be easy, you'll have to let go of many of your egoic attachments, but it'll be worth it in the end.

[Michael569]

12 hours ago, NoSelfSelf said:

whats real masculinity in your opinion?

read David Deida's book to learn about this.