Why Samatha Training Matters and When To Practice Self Enquiry

[ardacigin]

Awakening is tend to be seen as the ultimate goal of meditation. And It is true. The permanent and intuitive realization that there is no separate self is the first stage of awakening. Before one delves deeper into other insights, this radical realization colors and sets the tone for the rest of the practice.

This advice is for people who use the 'dry insight' practices like self enquiry to become awaken before developing advanced levels of samatha - mindfulness skills.

On the surface, it might appear that self enquiry is the more direct and faster path to awakening. However, most people can't get awaken using self inquiry only. But lets say you are one of the lucky people. You got stream entry all of a sudden before really mastering concentration and awareness skill. But that is not the end of the path. And you should not rely on such a luck based strategy.

Stream Entry doesn't turn you into a master-level meditator. It doesn't guarantee stable attention in daily life. It doesn't guarantee strong metacognitive and introspective awareness as a permanent baseline. Not without manual training.  These are samatha skills one builds with mindfulness techniques. Self enquiry won't solve all of your problems. Even if it leads to awakening after 20 years of practice.

A stream enterer will have easier access to high states of concentration and master the path of samadhi faster than a non-awakened meditator. But the real question is how awakening occurs in the first place?

Science currently doesn't have a conclusive answer to this question. One thing for sure is that meditation, mindfulness and Samatha practices which builds stable attention and strong peripheral awareness aids and increases the odds of awakening. Once you master the no-mind and stable attention as a solid baseline before self enquiry, you put yourself ina very advantageous position. You will be living the rest of your life on a natural high if you are doing the practices right.

Samadhi requires more work. It takes more discipline. ıt should be done alongside self inquiry. Especially as preliminary work. Samadhi pays off because you never waste your time building these skills. You can spend 20 years practicing self enquiry and 'weak-sauce' mindfulness techniques and really get nowhere. That is not what I'm talking about.

10 years ago, if you struggled to sit for 2 hours straight and now after 10 years, you still struggle doing it, then you are doing it wrong. You are practicing weak sauce meditation. If you struggle strong metacognitive awareness and stable attention after 20 years of meditation, then you don't understand the fundamental skills one needs to build in meditation. You don't practice the right techniques. If you can't reach effortlessness with relative ease after 20 years, then that is not deliberate practice. Don't use talent as an excuse. 

A better strategy is spending 5-10 years of your life purely mastering mindfulness and samadhi practices. Really emphasizing awareness and high states of concentration both in formal sessions and daily life. This can be done if you practice diligently with the right techniques.

Now the rest of your life is going to be spent on self enquiry and similar insight practices. Imagine 10 years of pure self enquiry after mastering samadhi in the first 10 years of your spiritual journey.

You are going in and out of deep jhanas, flow states and deep relaxation in daily life interacting with people. Your life changes at this point and some amount of insight penetration occurs even in the most unskilled meditator. If you could access this depth of mindfulness, you are not quite a beginner meditator anymore. You've done a lot of work coming here. Congratulations!

Now, what are the chances of permenant realization of no-self here after mastering the fundamentals?

Understand that self enquiry is an advanced meditation technique. Success is very slim and requires luck - momentary attunement in a beginner meditator.

It only becomes powerful for adept meditators who have high degrees of stable attention, awareness and equanimity. In other words, meditators who've mastered the path of mindfulness.

Rather than striving for awakening with craving in a conflicted and chatic monkey mind, you must learn to be patient. Take steps one at a time. Master no-mind first. Awakening is not going anywhere. You are NOT wasting your time. On the long run, you are saving DECADES of spiritual anguish by mastering the fundamentals of practice on the samatha - mindfulness path.

No-mind is not an impossible ideal. It can be accomplished. You can tame the monkey mind. It is not some advanced work one does after awakening. It can be mastered more systematically than awakening since it is purely skill-based. 

Take the time and energy to master samatha practices and you'll be glad you did.

I highly recommend reading 'The Mind Illuminated' by Culadasa. That book has everything you need to master the path of concentration and insight development. You can find his version of 'Self Enquiry' explained in the advanced stages of the book for adept meditators. 

Don't put the cart before the horse. Practice with discipline and diligence.

And most importantly, have fun  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2019 by ardacigin

[Leo Gura]

Quote

Understand that self enquiry is an advanced meditation technique. Success is very slim and requires luck - momentary attunement in a beginner meditator.

It only becomes powerful for adept meditators who have high degrees of stable attention, awareness and equanimity. In other words, meditators who've mastered the path of mindfulness.

Through lots of trail and error I have found this to be true.

It does not make sense to recommend self-inquiry to people who are stuck in monkey mind. They can spin their wheels for years without getting anywhere.

Mindfulness training or Kriya Yoga is great for calming that monkey mind.

[ardacigin]

24 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Through lots of trail and error I have found this to be true.

It does not make sense to recommend self-inquiry to people who are stuck in monkey mind.

 Right. Before I've really focused on mindfulness mastery, I've thought self enquiry would be faster and more direct. But considering how stream entry is only the beginning of awakening and how this is a 40 year long journey with VASTLY different depths of awakening, only self enquiry approach is a dead end.

Mindfulness must be mastered at a very deep level for more advanced work you talk about with 5 MEO DMT insights. You might get away with 'only self-inquiry' for stream entry. But that is just the beginning of awakening. No one talks about how 'self inquiry only' path leads to deeper and deeper awakenings. Because that is not the function of that technique.

The other insight practices are needed for other sorts of insights. But to do them effectively requires deep mindfulness as a baseline. I don't see a way out of mastering the mindfulness fundamentals and I think that many people (both on this forum and other places) are wasting a lot of time doing weak sauce meditation and hoping that self enquiry will do the trick in a few years. Instead, do 'strong sauce' meditation first. Master it. And then do self-enquiry.

That is a dangerous strategy which doesn't take into account the long term goals and pitfalls on the spiritual path. It is a 40+ year long journey if you are a seeker. Mindfulness should be considered as essential. It enables the mind to penetrate many spiritual insights with the right techniques. Self enquiry should be seen as one of those adept insight practices. Not a practice a beginner should spend 20 years practicing in a state of monkey mind for stream entry.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2019 by ardacigin

[Peo]

I am no master in meditation, but i can silent my mind during self inquiry. Well not always, but sometimes i can. I actually manage to silent my mind and have deep equanimity my few first time doing self inquiry. I also manage to have an awakening experience with 50 min self inquiry. Maybe i was just lucky. For some reason when i am really serious about self inquiry and i concentrat i can suddenly silent my mind. Once i silent the mind wired shit happens to me and i my consciousness changes. I am basically in a different state.

Maybe this is an cool ability i have or it just might be luck. I have to do some more testing and see if i'm able to silent my mind at will. I just find it wired that i can silent the mind for minutes with doing meditation just for 8 months and far away form mastery.

[ardacigin]

6 hours ago, Peo said:

I also manage to have an awakening experience with 50 min self inquiry.

This is not common. Consider yourself lucky. What sort of an awakening experience was it? How permanent was it?

[Jack River]

INSIGHT also a direct approach to realize and rest in one’s essence of being. Seems to depend upon the individual and their specific conditioning and the way they respond to different patterns/cycles of experience. 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Jack River

[Jack River]

I know some people who have been doing meditation for years and never actually reach that dimensionless SELF REALIZATION that they are NOW.  

Seems to depend on the individual. The way they perceive, comprehend, interpret their own construct of reality. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Jack River

[Peo]

@ardacigin I realized nothingness and just sat there and suddenly i realized that i was not looking at my feat and that i never existed. I realized no-self. I had a big panic attack. It was not permanent. Unfortunately i got back to my ego self in some few minutes. It did not stick. 

[Nahm]

@ardacigin Really great post. Just some push back on the 40 years estimate. That’s way off ime of meeting with people. I am wondering if you’ve experienced modalities with other people in addition to (solo) practices. People seem to connect the dots quickly (hours or days) resulting in realizations, from conversations (with illustrations) regarding the relationship between thought & sensation  -   their life dream & responsibilties  -  the unnoticed utilization of the “ I “ / “self” preventatively  -  and ultimately what they’re been referring to as perception. 

[zeroISinfinity]

@Jack River Fastest way to realize themselves as dimensionless nothing is with do nothing (not reacting /allowing any sensation That arises) and with removal of appearance of senses (dark room, ears plugged etc).

Maya is for devils. Wait when devils realize That Source/Actual nothing itself is only real everything else is an illusion/lie.

Rest in Being and there is no maya anymore. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by zeroISinfinity

[ValiantSalvatore]

@ardacigin What do you think about do-nothing pratices to calm down the monkey mind? I've been using various concentration techniques, yet mostly from shinzens paradigm, yet there are also different flavours of concentration when talking about entering samadhis. I've also praticed with Leos approach from his Video for a month and then dropped it.

For instance. https://puredhamma.net/bhavana-meditation/samadhi-three-kinds-of-mindfulness/ I did a weekend retreat over the last weekend at home via shinzens programs I asked him because I listend to the audiobook the mind illuminated now a couple of times about my approach of praticing. As a side note I do assume for entering stage 8 access concentration or upakahra samadhi can be benefitial.

What I am praticing is note everything so basically a do nothing form of vipassana in a sense, you let concentration concentrate you or you reverse engineer the process, instead of building the product of concentration you gain access to the information by doing nothing and let concentration build on it's own.

I asked him and said that I've "read" the book the mind illuminated since I assume they know each other, and asked about khanika samadhi since that was apparently what I am training, I can't conflate it... with some concept in the mind illuminated book yet or a stage. Does Culadasa speak about in in the mind illuminated since I only listened to the audibook I assume I do have a lot of loop holes in my understanding here ? What are your thoughts about khanika Samadhi ? Shinzen did not give me a direct answer, what I can remember said this is the "age of do it yourself" I am not sure if he wanted to give me some life advice subtely, as he did before when I talked to him. Yet, at one point I was interrupted as someone else had a question but he was very inspired afterwards and subtely gave tips the whole time, since there are always new people on the net. 

Here is a good contrast of Khanika Samadhi since what you seem to be practicing is Upacara Samadhi, in case you have a good source feel free to share, I am here to learn in the first place. Also the other link below shows the buddahs way to think about it in a "sound bite"

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/vip-jhana.html
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mahasi/wheel298.html

You can String f search for KHANIKA SAMADHI. There is only one term for that in the latter link.

I am re-listening to the talk, as I said I am curious for your opinon as well as want to share, ideally it helps for the outcome / result. Shinzen explained to me that regardless if it's khanika samadhi, from Mahasi Sayadaw or from another master, first of he uses the term similar to Mahasi, the links above are google searches with mahasi khanika samadhi, it's seeable even in the link. The point about concentration, that I want to explain is, in Shinzens term is, it does not matter if you focus on a small or big object for a short time or a small or big object for a long time ALL of the FOUR Possibillities !! Are ways to go about it. Yet, with khanika samadhi, he explained as I did above you can reverse engineer it as well as access it, by noting each moment, yet it's inevitable that you do both while sitting, because you still do nothing at one point when concentration on all object regardless if big or small breaks down. As well as single pointed concentration is better for developing Jhanas. 

I am not sure what Samantha is about is it not equanimity ? I could not find the term anymore while googling for this post.

He further explained that focusing on a small object or a larger object could hinder noticing of impermanence, yet when you drop deep you are able to see what was simple and stable before as impermanent. 

It is important to pratice Jhana meditation as well as Insight meditation and he adviced me to do both, and study more since I did not know that. Khanika samadhi approaches seem to work for insight meditation. Yet, all of this goes deeper than I orignally thought, I've read shinzens script a multiple times, but the old scriptures are important too and it's fairly involved..

Any thoughts on this also how long is your pratice time in case you feel free to share, otherwise would it be fine to hit you up with a pm about your pratice ?










 

Edited August 13, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[ardacigin]

1 hour ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

The point about concentration, that I want to explain is, in Shinzens term is, it does not matter if you focus on a small or big object for a short time or a small or big object for a long time ALL of the FOUR Possibillities !! Are ways to go about it.

It actually matters how big or small the meditation object is. At least in the beginning. You don't have the conscious bandwidth to hold the entire sensory experience as a concentration object. If you try to attempt Mahasi Sayadaw style full body noting practices without developing strong peripheral awareness and stable attention, the attention will alternate rapidly. This is not the purpose of the technique. You want the awareness to penetrate consciousness. You want the attention stable. But the awareness must get sensorily clear and strong to note the whole body effectively. To do that practicing stable attention with a small object like the breath is very good training method. 

Noting is an advanced practice. You can try if you want but just like self enquiry, you need the introspective awareness and high degrees of sensory clarity to pull it off. It is mostly stage 7 beyond practice just like self inquiry. The effortlessly sustained stable attention to the breath should be baseline standard practice before insight practices. This is basically what Culadasa teaches in his book for greater success.

1 hour ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

Does Culadasa speak about in in the mind illuminated since I only listened to the audibook

Wait! Hold the phone. I didn't know TMI had an audiobook version  I'm getting it now. Thanks a lot man!

 

[ardacigin]

1 hour ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

how long is your pratice time in case you feel free to share,

I usually do 2 hour SDS sits but I'm only doing 45 mins these days. Rather than working through pain, I'm trying to increase joy and pleasure by meditating outside for shorther periods of time. I'm also working towards higher quality of practice for those 45 mins and deeper mindfulness integration in daily life. 

[How to be wise]

@ardacigin Rather than thinking of ‘getting enlightened’, try to think of it more as ‘realising that you’re already enlightened.’ This is a far more accurate terminology for me. 

For most practitioners, when they learn about enlightenment, they conjure up what they think enlightenment is, and they chase those ideas. But those ideas don’t exist, so they spend decades just chasing their tails. Enlightenment is not different from what you are experiencing now. Stop getting stuck in all those spiritual concepts. Forget about terms like infinity, god and consciousness. Focus on just your direct experience. This is enlightenment. Just realise that.

Of course, I’m speaking from my POV. I don’t know if this will work for you.

[peanutspathtotruth]

I also have to say that do nothing technique to me is most effective when combined with self inquiry and that to practice attention never got me far. Of course opinions differ and I use to come back to a short concentration practice whenever I feel I'm really restless. I have this opinion partly from Adyashanti, who in his book "true meditation" talks about exactly this point. But I have to add: When doing 1 or 2 hours of do nothing, equanimity and attention are trained automatically. Monkey mind is not the enemy! I like how Rupert Spira always comes back to the point that a thought never covers your true being. If you really look, and for me it took a while, then no matter the content of experience, you can rest as Self. Whenever I am trapped in identification with the mind, I inquire into the one who feels identified, and as soon as it is recognized I abide there. Effortless effort. Every effort, even concentration, comes from a someone doing an effort. At least that's my experience so far.

I'm really open to your opinion, and maybe some years of mindfulness meditation prepared me for this, but my last dedicated concentration practice must be 6-12 months ago and I'm only getting deeper since I switched to do nothing. I have to be honest though, I sometimes think about adding a concentration practice again. I just wanted to show a different perspective. I can't find enlightened beings agreeing on this point. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by peanutspathtotruth

[Jordan94]

I have to say I discovered the book The Mind Illuminated a few months ago thanks to one of @ardacigin posts, and it really skyrocketed my progress and benefits in meditation, I got more progress and fruits in the past few months than in 2-3 years of doing 1 to 2 hours daily of Goenka style vipassana meditation technique

I don't know why more people don't talk about it on this forum at least, it's just a pure gem for the people who are actually about doing the practices rather than just intelectualising the path

[passerby]

@Jordan94 There is 2 subreddits dedicated to the book if you wanna check out. The first is actually called the mind illuminated, and the second is called r/streamentry which is based heavily on the mind illuminated

[Consilience]

Been really digging your posts man! This book has also helped tremendously with my meditation ??

[Jack River]

21 hours ago, zeroISinfinity said:

@Jack River Fastest way to realize themselves as dimensionless nothing is with do nothing (not reacting /allowing any sensation That arises) and with removal of appearance of senses (dark room, ears plugged etc).

Maya is for devils. Wait when devils realize That Source/Actual nothing itself is only real everything else is an illusion/lie.

Rest in Being and there is no maya anymore. 

Do nothing, dark rooms, deprivation of sound is your preferred way to realize one's dimensionless nature. That is your preference though? 

 

Exclusion may have been necessary for you...but that is the way you wanted to play it❤️

Edited August 14, 2019 by Jack River

[zeroISinfinity]

@Jack River Yeah I know stop bothering me Wishmaster. ?