The Problem With The Software Industry

[Extreme Z7]

 

[Extreme Z7]

My favorite quote from the video. (20:15)
On justifying lying to your interviewer,
"Next time you go to an interview, ask them this question: 'So you're offering me a salary of 50,000$? How much money in profit am I making you?' See if they'll tell you, see if they don't try to omit it"
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Basically, the problem as with many industries is unchecked excessive capitalism.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Extreme Z7 said:

"Next time you go to an interview, ask them this question: 'So you're offering me a salary of 50,000$? How much money in profit am I making you?' See if they'll tell you, see if they don't try to omit it"

That is a pretty absurd question. Of course the company must make profit off you, otherwise they'd be out of business.

Business is not so simply. A company does not always know how much it's going to make off you because companies take risks. In some cases a company could actually lose money on you.

If you ask that question on an interview, you will never get hired because it's way too combative and entitled, and doesn't appreciate the complexities of business.

I've hired people before on whom I've lost money. And so have other companies.

[Scholar]

46 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That is a pretty absurd question. Of course the company must make profit off you, otherwise they'd be out of business.

Business is not so simply. A company does not always know how much it's going to make off you because companies take risks. In some cases a company could actually lose money on you.

If you ask that question on an interview, you will never get hired because it's way too combative and entitled, and doesn't appreciate the complexities of business.

I've hired people before on whom I've lost money. And so have other companies.

Leo what do you recommend to get a good basic understanding of business in general?

[Girzo]

I think it's not a problem of how much a company is making but discrepancy in sallaries.

If CEO or business owner is earning a year 20x what an entry-level developer working for them makes then that's an unfair structure. If it's 3-5x then it's reasonable.

Though I know that it takes a lot of integrity to abide by such rules and there's no economical incentive in doing that.

[Scholar]

4 minutes ago, Girzo said:

I think it's not a problem of how much a company is making but discrepancy in sallaries.

If CEO or business owner is earning a year 20x what an entry-level developer working for them makes then that's an unfair structure. If it's 3-5x then it's reasonable.

Though I know that it takes a lot of integrity to abide by such rules and there's no economical incentive in doing that.

I think the problem is that it simply does not work that way. Give a CEO less money he will work for someone else. There is a reason why CEOs get paid so much.

[Girzo]

@Scholar I mean you as a CEO or business owner decide to not earn that much relative to your employees. If you are self-honest there's no reason why you should be compensated 20x or even 10x what the low-level worker makes. They are spending an equal portion of their life for the benefit of the company. It's a question of how much you value human life by itself. That's why I said it requires integrity.

I said that in the context of this question "How much money in profit am I making you?". I think what this person really aches for is not for the company to stop making a profit but earning on par with other workers, including executives.

[Extreme Z7]

@Leo Gura It was rhetorical, though. He wasn't seriously suggesting that you ask that question.

It was part of a rant talking about some greedy stingy companies in general who would easily fire you if they find a way to get more work from someone else for less pay.

Of course, they gotta earn more money than they pay you, I'm obviously not against that. The quote was more of a comment on corporate secrecy. I'm pretty sure you advocated for complete income transparency in Conscious Politics Part 4.

[Sunder]

On 8/14/2019 at 3:21 AM, Girzo said:

@Scholar I mean you as a CEO or business owner decide to not earn that much relative to your employees. If you are self-honest there's no reason why you should be compensated 20x or even 10x what the low-level worker makes. They are spending an equal portion of their life for the benefit of the company. It's a question of how much you value human life by itself. That's why I said it requires integrity.

You could also think of it from a different perspective.

You are a business owner that wants to make widgets to sell. You have the option of hiring one of three people:

1. A local worker that can build 10 widgets a day for a salary of $100 a day. ($10 per widget)

2. An engineer, that can build and maintain a machine to build 100 widgets for $500 a day. ($5 per widget)

3. An international business manager, that will negotiate and manage a supply chain, that will allow you to import 1000 widgets for $1000 a day. ($1 per widget).

Assuming you could sell all the widgets you make, who would you hire? You don't get to set their price, the market does. If the manager or engineer doesn't get his demanded salary, he works for your competitor instead.

Would you really demand that the international business manager work for $300-500 a day, tops, otherwise you'd hire the local widget maker?

[Girzo]

@Sunder The more shitty widgets you sell, the more low wage workers you will need. They need to talk to your clients, complete orders and pack it for courier service. How much are you going to pay them? Let's assume $20.000 for them and about $200.000 for yourself and your super-duper manager each. Do you see how unfair this structure is?

There is a rescue for those minimal-wage workers. That is raising the minimum wage and higher taxation of the rich, so they don't displace the costs on the consumers. You can also raise their wages voluntarily because you are a noble human being.

But it does nothing for the software industry because engineers are already earning above average. So you either have to freelance, make an effort to get hired at a conscious company or create one. It's all about the consciousness of the business owner in my opinion.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Girzo

[Sunder]

@girzo, Why is that unfair? If someone produces 10x value for a company, shouldn't he receive 10x the wage? Why do I care if he spent 4, 40, or 140 hours to achieve that outcome?