Sunset is making me depressed

[tatsumaru]

I like waking up in the morning, the bright sun, the warm breeze the birds chirping, I identify this with endless possibilities, happiness and potential etc. but when the sun starts setting I feel like the day is dying and that yet another day has passed and I am still not where I want to be and that my time is running out and all these kind of "end of time" emotions. It reminds me of death in general and of my own mortality as well which in turn makes me depressed. I am not sure if this is a serious emotional problem but wasn't sure where to put it. I just feel like this sadness towards death is unnecessary but I have trouble letting go. I have this thought in the back of my head going like "You are not complete yet and if this would be your last day you would have failed at life...". Why do I feel that I am never enough and that I need to conquer some legendary goal in life in order to be able to die with a smile on my face? Thanks.

Edited August 11, 2019 by tatsumaru

[Truth Addict]

@tatsumaru

Carefully observe your thoughts until you're disidentified from them.

When I watch the sunset, I just see a beautiful sunset! Something magical and delightful that was created for me to experience and enjoy. Of course, these thoughts don't necessarily appear while watching, but you can use them as means to arrive there.

There are two ways for silencing the mind:

1. Carefully observing them and questioning them to death. Meditation/self-inquiry/contemplation are great for that purpose. This will lead to a painful ego death for most people, for me it was a pleasant and freeing process, accompanied with a practical life failure. I have no experience with psychedelics, but they say they're better than all of the above.
2. Replacing negative thoughts with positive thoughts and believing them. This is known as the Law of Attraction, or traditionally as prayer. A practical use of those methods is the positive affirmations method. Eventually, and after months of practising, the positive thoughts will sink into the subconscious mind and become as evident and clear as the negative ones you're experiencing right now.

In my experience, both ways are legit and will lead you to the same place, and that is peace of mind, which will develop into happiness and then total bliss.

It's really simple, all you have to lose is your 'self'.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Truth Addict

[RendHeaven]

Are you kidding?? The sunset is one of the most amazing forms you can witness in nature!

I agree that it has a sense of finality, ending, or even decay. But I find that flawlessly beautiful.

It makes me want to cry happy tears when in the right mood. It reminds me that all of my hustle and goal setting is a myopic game.

Isn't it interesting how we attribute the same meanings to the sunset, except that I find it tranquil whereas you do not?

I think it's hilarious that you could be DEPRESSED about it, but hey. That's just my perspective

Edited August 11, 2019 by RendHeaven

[Nahm]

@tatsumaru Where do you want to be?

[tatsumaru]

1 hour ago, RendHeaven said:

Are you kidding?? The sunset is one of the most amazing forms you can witness in nature!

I agree that it has a sense of finality, ending, or even decay. But I find that flawlessly beautiful.

It makes me want to cry happy tears when in the right mood. It reminds me that all of my hustle and goal setting is a myopic game.

Isn't it interesting how we attribute the same meanings to the sunset, except that I find it tranquil whereas you do not?

I think it's hilarious that you could be DEPRESSED about it, but hey. That's just my perspective

Well so far I've been a very neurotic person and have created a lot of unnecessary drama and suffering for myself. I don't know where it comes from, but it's like I have this drama movie director who lives inside me and is a genius at interpreting any input as ugly, sad, morbid and depressing.

[tatsumaru]

1 minute ago, Nahm said:

@tatsumaru Where do you want to be?

I am not really sure. How can I know where I want to be or what I want if I don't even know what I am. I am just so confused and can't get over this inner conflict of survival and spiritual suicide it's like if there's no self then what's the point of me being conscious and not just some stone lying there. I am lost in this madness.

 

[Nahm]

Just now, tatsumaru said:

I am not really sure. How can I know where I want to be or what I want if I don't even know what I am. I am just so confused and can't get over this inner conflict of survival and spiritual suicide it's like if there's no self then what's the point of me being conscious and not just some stone lying there. I am lost in this madness.

 

Today, go buy a dry erase board. Write “what do I want?” On it. 

[tatsumaru]

12 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Today, go buy a dry erase board. Write “what do I want?” On it. 

I can give you a ton of dreams that I have, but I have been told that reality isn't here for me but that I am here for reality. So I am wondering if it even matters what I want. Isn't flow like some sort of fate where you surrender your wishes and desires and agree to live your fate not your dream? If I had a button that I could press to completely delete myself from existence and not have to participate in this madness anymore I would press it.

Edited August 11, 2019 by tatsumaru

[Nahm]

@tatsumaru Or don’t. 

[Truth Addict]

@tatsumaru

Why do you ignore my posts? Are they really that irrelevant? Or do I sound stupid? Is the problem in the structure of my writings? Or the the over-confident/absolutist-sounding language that I use? 

Please reply to this, and be blunt if you want to, I need your feedback on my communication skills so I can become a better communicator.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, tatsumaru said:

I can give you a ton of dreams that I have, but I have been told that reality isn't here for me but that I am here for reality. So I am wondering if it even matters what I want. Isn't flow like some sort of fate where you surrender your wishes and desires and agree to live your fate not your dream? If I had a button that I could press to completely delete myself from existence and not have to participate in this madness anymore I would press it.

A different perspective...you can’t give me any of the dreams you have. They’re yours, uniquely. That’s a beautiful thing. You can live them, but you can’t give them. It feels really great to live them. It’s what you ‘came here’ to do. It’s what you’ve always been doing. It’s who you are, a creator. It feels good to be yourself. You’re creating, wether you’re choosing what you’re creating, or creating that you can’t. It is good to be on purpose, and choose. Universe lines up with you, and that’s quite an aligned wonder. 

Why choose to listen to what someone told you, when you have dreams, and sensations, and can choose thoughts which align with the sensations, and live your dreams? It’s really, really fun.

Fate is not something you have directly experienced, other than as your thought, repeated, belief. The oracle asks Neo what if she wouldn't Have mentioned the vase. Neo didn’t get the point. The oracle tells Neo he’s not the one. He didn’t get the point. The kid tells him there is no spoon. He didn’t get the point. He still hadn’t chosen to be. 

 

[tatsumaru]

11 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

@tatsumaru

Why do you ignore my posts? Are they really that irrelevant? Or do I sound stupid? Is the problem in the structure of my writings? Or the the over-confident/absolutist-sounding language that I use? 

Please reply to this, and be blunt if you want to, I need your feedback on my communication skills so I can become a better communicator.

I don't ignore your posts dear sir, I've just tried some of your suggestions you make and they have provided only temporary relief and I am looking for permanent liberation rather than having to manage my thoughts on a day to day basis. I want to cut suffering at the root rather than deal with the symptoms. I don't really like Ester Hicks and The Secret etc. I don't think the Law of Attraction is a real thing, I've never seen anyone manifest anything in this life other than through following their passion and doing a ridiculous painful amount of hard work. Everyone who claims they LoA works has only manifested very minor things which you can build in your life without this belief in LoA as well. When Elon Musk started Tesla and SpaceX he said he thought both companies would fail but he created two of the greatest companies in human history. The only way I can see LoA working is as some sort of a motivational booster to help you do things you don't really like to do.

11 hours ago, Nahm said:

Fate is not something you have directly experienced, other than as your thought, repeated, belief. The oracle asks Neo what if she wouldn't Have mentioned the vase. Neo didn’t get the point. The oracle tells Neo he’s not the one. He didn’t get the point. The kid tells him there is no spoon. He didn’t get the point. He still hadn’t chosen to be. 

But how can we have both free will and fate? And if there was nothing pre-determined in the Matrix how did the Oracle create the prophecy? Was it just a stunt to motivate everyone to save the world? In the second movie there's a scene which one of my spiritual teachers said was the most important scene in the movie. The Oracle and Neo meet in a park and the Oracle offers Neo a candy so Neo asks: "But if you already know what I am going to do, then how can I make a choice?" And the Oracle replies: "Because you didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You are here to try to understand why you made it." I think this scene holds the key to understanding free will but I am still not sure what it means...
 

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by tatsumaru

[Truth Addict]

@tatsumaru

Ahhh, I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Anyway, as obvious and direct as it might sound, have you ever looked into why you're suffering? Like just sitting for a couple of hours/days trying to capture the real cause of suffering. What is the essence of suffering? What is the root that is causing all the symptoms? Like real, tangible, clear answer, without speculation, without hitting around the bush.

Once you have the answer, it will be all downhill from there.

The methods I suggested can be of different values to different people. If you're the skeptical type, then self-inquiry and contemplation are the simplest and most-rewarding techniques. Just make sure you practice them with a calm mind, that's what 10-15 minutes pre-session of meditation is ideal for. That'll save you hours of monkey-mind and hitting around the bush.

So, here's the plan:

• Make a list of questions that you want to answer, or maybe just one question, it doesn't matter.
• Calm down the mind through meditation or deep breathing or going out in nature, or all of them.
• Start asking questions and looking for actual answers.
• Once you've arrived at the desired answers, start working on them. For example: the root cause of my suffering is my attachment to outcomes. Questions that arise at first: Do I really want outcomes? Or do I want happiness? Can't I have both of them? (of course you can). Is attachment necessary for success? (no, of course not). Who in the world that I know is detached and successful at the same time? What can I do to learn from them? etc...
• After that mindstorming session, you return back to the root cause: How do I detach myself from outcomes? Hmmm, let's dive into the nature of outcomes: Outcome is a concept of a future possible gain. Okay, let's dive into the nature of future, possibilities, and gains. And here I will leave it for you to contemplate for yourself at your own pace, because it gets a little bit abstract and biased to my subjective experience, and because as you might have noticed, it gets diverse as you dive in more, because every question begs more questions. (so here I recommend using a pen and paper to create a tree model for your main question, and then divide it into many branches of sub-questions, and then sub-sub-questions, and so forth).
• At certain point, every question will hit rock-bottom. And you will have a map for why you suffer. Those final answers that you've found will probably point you towards the same direction. Here, resolution will start to become tangible and you will start to see the light.
• You might need meditation as the monkey mind might start making noises and distractions.

Go hard or go home. Quite interesting, huh?

Edited August 12, 2019 by Truth Addict

[JustThinkingAloud]

14 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

 it's like I have this drama movie director who lives inside me and is a genius at interpreting any input as ugly, sad, morbid and depressing.

I think this might be your problem. This “drama director” is you, you’ve created this believe and making it happen to make yourself right (our mind loves being right). Shut him up, prove him wrong, send him somewhere, tell him to …. off!

Once that's done, you can be who you want to be. I know that it's easy said but it can be done, we all constantly creating ourselves. We don't mysteriously become someone, we create ourselves, sometimes without realising that we do. Life can be very rewarding once you know what to do with it.

[Nahm]

@tatsumaru Some great advice here already. Take that true inward adventure. Thomas needs to find out, to know, but ultimately there’s no cognitive knowing. But there is a knowing, and in that knowing he is the one. The oracle is a sort of guide through that twoness, through all that is seen and heard, to that which is not. Spoiler alert on the choosing of thoughts...when you’re one, you won’t have to dodge the bullets anymore. 

[tatsumaru]

10 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

@tatsumaru

Ahhh, I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Anyway, as obvious and direct as it might sound, have you ever looked into why you're suffering? Like just sitting for a couple of hours/days trying to capture the real cause of suffering. What is the essence of suffering? What is the root that is causing all the symptoms? Like real, tangible, clear answer, without speculation, without hitting around the bush.

Once you have the answer, it will be all downhill from there.

The methods I suggested can be of different values to different people. If you're the skeptical type, then self-inquiry and contemplation are the simplest and most-rewarding techniques. Just make sure you practice them with a calm mind, that's what 10-15 minutes pre-session of meditation is ideal for. That'll save you hours of monkey-mind and hitting around the bush.

So, here's the plan:

• Make a list of questions that you want to answer, or maybe just one question, it doesn't matter.
• Calm down the mind through meditation or deep breathing or going out in nature, or all of them.
• Start asking questions and looking for actual answers.
• Once you've arrived at the desired answers, start working on them. For example: the root cause of my suffering is my attachment to outcomes. Questions that arise at first: Do I really want outcomes? Or do I want happiness? Can't I have both of them? (of course you can). Is attachment necessary for success? (no, of course not). Who in the world that I know is detached and successful at the same time? What can I do to learn from them? etc...
• After that mindstorming session, you return back to the root cause: How do I detach myself from outcomes? Hmmm, let's dive into the nature of outcomes: Outcome is a concept of a future possible gain. Okay, let's dive into the nature of future, possibilities, and gains. And here I will leave it for you to contemplate for yourself at your own pace, because it gets a little bit abstract and biased to my subjective experience, and because as you might have noticed, it gets diverse as you dive in more, because every question begs more questions. (so here I recommend using a pen and paper to create a tree model for your main question, and then divide it into many branches of sub-questions, and then sub-sub-questions, and so forth).
• At certain point, every question will hit rock-bottom. And you will have a map for why you suffer. Those final answers that you've found will probably point you towards the same direction. Here, resolution will start to become tangible and you will start to see the light.
• You might need meditation as the monkey mind might start making noises and distractions.

Go hard or go home. Quite interesting, huh?

The problem is that I don't believe any answers. I started my spiritual journey with Jed McKenna spiritual autolysis so I am familiar with this dissolution of self through questioning, but my problem with the whole method is that it's always based on some assumption and this assumption is required in order for the method to work. In Jed's case he makes an assumption that truth exists, which is just logical reasoning and there's no guarantee that universe or reality has to obey logic or reason. You remove all assumptions there's nothing to think about. Essentially it's all an assumption, so thinking is futile. We don't seem to have the capability to discern between true and false and these seem to just be some concepts that we came up with to make life more palatable. Hence why philosophy is a dead end it always ends with some sort of fanatical belief-system or nihilism/agnostic oblivion. The intellect just can't solve it just runs in circles. The answer is not inside. Whenever someone start talking about spiritual inquiry, or self-inquiry or spiritual autolysis etc I just feel this guy didn't push hard enough on the limits of his intellect and has some sort of belief system that's left unchecked supporting his current conclusions. Even science is based on assumptions such as - cause precedes effect, objects exist separately etc. It's all faith and this is driving me crazy I want truth not faith. I've searched the as much internet as I could and I haven't been able to find anyone who can say something that solves this, which is obviously making me incredibly sad and depressed because if it can't be figured out what's the point of it all, just a meaningless nightmare.

I always doubt everything. It's like there's no knowing at all. I will give you an example:
Let's say I reach to the realization that suffering is caused by the desire of things to be different than what they are (as the Buddha explained), but then I am like, but what if suffering is necessary for growth? And then I am like if I am okay with everything then I don't even need to move from my chair anymore because everything is okay and I don't need to resist anything. But then I am like well maybe hunger is good and I should eat when I am hungry, but then I am like but what if I feel like taking drugs should I follow this as well. And it doesn't lead anywhere. You can do this bullshit all day long, I've been doing it for the last 10 years my friend. In my experience if your imagination is big enough you can't hold on to anything because at some point you are going to doubt logic and experience as well and there will nothing at all left to hold on to so it becomes an empty nightmare. Then you can either go back to beliefs with this uneasy feeling that you are lying to yourself and suffer or suffer in complete confusion and nihilism. There might be other options but I haven't found them well. One of the options that seems to be interesting is to follow your inspiration without hesitation because it seems not to be born out of belief, the so called flow, the so called surrender and this is probably the wisest choice but I am still learning to recognize flow and whether flow direction changes based on my intentions or whether it has only one ultimate destination - truth etc. It has been suggested to me that spirit/flow will guide towards my wishes, but how can I make a wish if I don't know what's true? I prefer to be open-minded and being guided without beliefs. etc. etc. It's an infinite or almost infinite problem I've spent my whole life trying to unravel this and as a result I've become a miserable, depressed and highly neurotic person. I am a little bit scared that I might go mad at some point. If I had to pick one thing that I wanted more than anything else in life that would be absolute clarity beyond any doubt. If you ask me why I want the doubt to go away - then yeah probably the ultimate reason is because I want to be as peaceful and as carefree and lighthearted I was as a child. I want to let go of this burden. But I don't want to be a meditative zombie devoted to escapism where my life is just watching the raindrops and waiting to die, I want my life to have a purpose, a real meaning, some sort of adventure. I do have severe monkey mind problem that's for sure. Very neurotic. Meditation is good for me indeed, but for me meditation is like treating the symptoms rather than solving the problem. Still valuable but not the real thing. I don't want to cut individual branches of dukkha I want to remove it at the root. In Tilopa's mahamudra it is said:

"A tree spreads its branches and puts forth leaves,
But when its root is cut its foliage withers;
So too, when the root of the mind is severed,
The branches of the tree of samsara die

A single lamp dispels the darkness of a thousand aeons;
Likewise, a single flash of the mind's clear light
Erases aeons of karmic conditioning and spiritual blindness."

That's what I want. Desperately.

6 hours ago, Nahm said:

@tatsumaru Some great advice here already. Take that true inward adventure. Thomas needs to find out, to know, but ultimately there’s no cognitive knowing. But there is a knowing, and in that knowing he is the one. The oracle is a sort of guide through that twoness, through all that is seen and heard, to that which is not. Spoiler alert on the choosing of thoughts...when you’re one, you won’t have to dodge the bullets anymore. 

I suspect that there's some sort of knowing/gnosis beyond the intellect because the intellect is just so utterly helpless at figuring life out, it's just recycling the past. I feel like this intuition might be the key to going further but it's so easy to confuse intuition, instinct, emotion at least from where I am so I am really not sure how it works and whether I set the goal or whether I exist as reality's slave as it has been suggested by some spiritual teachings. Very confusing. Isn't there at least one thing that I can Really know that I can base my life on? Isn't there anything real or is it all a constant river of simulate imagery that is ever-changing and meaningless and would not reveal its ultimate nature to the mere mortal like me?

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by tatsumaru

[Nahm]

48 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

I suspect that there's some sort of knowing/gnosis beyond the intellect because the intellect is just so utterly helpless at figuring life out, it's just recycling the past. I feel like this intuition might be the key to going further but it's so easy to confuse intuition, instinct, emotion at least from where I am so I am really not sure how it works and whether I set the goal or whether I exist as reality's slave as it has been suggested by some spiritual teachings. Very confusing. Isn't there at least one thing that I can Really know that I can base my life on? Isn't there anything real or is it all a constant river of simulate imagery that is ever-changing and meaningless and would not reveal its ultimate nature to the mere mortal like me?

 

Yes! Prior to the intellect, never beyond it. This Power has been within you the whole time. There’s nothing to figure out - with the one exception of just understanding your sensations have always been guiding you. A thought doesn’t feel good - pick one that does. That’s it.  This begin’s the ‘tapping into’ your real power. Though is itself “utterly helpless” because it is hollow, empty, powerless. The sensations matter, not the thoughts. Write down what you really want, listen to sensations, choose better thoughts. So simple it’s profound. 

Even “recycling the past” is just a thought, and any and all thought, is experienced - now. 

 

Intuition is that middle ground between “I was living in thought” - and - “I am listening to sensations now”. The real wisdom is sensations. The initial experiences with this, is referred to as intuition. 

 

Instinct is your source, which can’t be conceptualizing. Nothing to do there but credit instinct for reflexes, etc. It is good. 

 

Emotions are created, one is either aware they are creating them or not`1st:

You have sensations. Done. 

Thoughts arise. Listen to sensations, and you create good feeling emotions, by choosing thoughts that feel good. 

Suppress, ignore the sensations - and continue with the thought which does not feel good, and you create emotions like shame, guilt, regret, etc, etc, etc. We all know them. ?

The thought “realities slave” does not feel good, that’s how you know it’s not true. You are already creating your own reality, you’re just discovering how you’ve been doing it. 

Choose to “set the goal”. Your goal. Uniquely yours, whatever you can dream up! Write it down, tape it to the wall. Thoughts of self doubt arise, sensation says “That ain’t true bruh”, you listen to sensations, and just choosing a better feeling thought. 

The “one thing you can really know, and base your life on” is you - sensations. You already made it this way, that’s why they’re there, guiding you. There is nowhere you could ever go, and not have that guidance - not have sensations. “So...I don’t have to worry..?...like...ever?”. No, you don’t have to worry, ever. 

Real & not real - are thoughts. Ask yourself, and listen to the answers of sensation. 

Meaning - choose what you want! Listen to sensations! Let it be meaningful!

Keep asking questions, just like you essentially did with this post. It keeps uncovering your total awesomeness. Ideally, ask your sensations. 

 

 

[tatsumaru]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

Thoughts arise. Listen to sensations, and you create good feeling emotions, by choosing thoughts that feel good. 

But what if a serial killer gets excited about hunting his next victim or a drug addict gets happy about getting a fix, is that still the voice one should listen to? What about getting excited to eat something sweet when it's clearly bad for you? If there are feel goods  that lead us astray and feel goods that lead us in the right path how to distinguish?

Also Leo says that if something sounds deeply offensive and disturbing it's probably because there's a lot of growth to be had there if you become conscious of it, but you say that we should go with what feels good, so I am confused. Chogyam Trungpa once said "enlightenment is ego's ultimate disappointment" and Jed McKenna said that "your moments of blackest despair are your most honest ones" so I've always had this feeling that if I like something its because it's wrong and is reinforcing the ego where if something sounds bleak, morbid and depressing (e.g. there is no self, life has no meaning, you are here for reality not the other way around, there's no certainty etc. etc.) then it's probably true. The more the ego is disappointed the more hopeless it is for the ego, the closer to reality it ought to be as reality reminds that ego is an illusion and it wants to survive and is being suffocated by spirituality.

Edited August 12, 2019 by tatsumaru

[Truth Addict]

@tatsumaru

(Just my thoughts, I could be wrong about all of them. I find it better to share them as you seem very open-minded. Otherwise, I would have remained silent, or at best, sugar-coated them).

?

Here's a list of the obstacles that are possibly keeping you from resolving the suffering, I believe they're all interconnected:

• Paradigm lock. You're a skeptic, you believe that for something to be true, it has to be proven first. Well, obviously, that's a groundless assumption. The whole notion of proof is just absurd, a vicious cycle. You hold on to this skeptic position so much that you're afraid of letting go of it. You believe that you will become prone to delusions if you lose that filter. Therefore, you limit Truth to what passes through that filter, which, I hope you can see, is very limited and myopic, if even possible.
• You doubt the existence of Truth, and you use skepticism to do that. But the mere fact that you are trying to disprove something assumes a 'thing' to begin with, which is, in essence, prior to proof or disproof. That 'thing' is Truth. Similar to Descartes' famous statement: "Cogito, ergo sum", but without a self.
• You still haven't 'killed' your ego yet. You favour your survival over liberation/realising Truth.
• You still haven't transcended morality yet.
• You still haven't transcended the meaningful vs. meaningless duality yet.
• You're disconnected from your emotions, you always keep them under the surface and never embrace them, and you underrate them tremendously.
• You believe that realising Truth will lead you to a happy/meaningful life. I mean it certainly will, but from your current position it will not until you drop that belief, because ego is standing in the way.
• I'm just speculative with this one, but you believe in free will.
• You believe that to get 'here', you have to do something. But that belief of something needs to be done, is itself a move out of 'here' so to speak.
• In case I am wrong with all of the above, then that means that you don't believe them to be true, but just possibilities. In that case, you need to detach from thoughts, and transcend the mind. You need to pass through the gateless gate.

If everything above did not work/resonate, could you please give me your best definition of Truth? Even if it's just a concept.

I hope something clicked for you.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Truth Addict

[JustThinkingAloud]

7 hours ago, tatsumaru said:

Isn't there at least one thing that I can Really know that I can base my life on? Isn't there anything real or is it all a constant river of simulate imagery that is ever-changing and meaningless and would not reveal its ultimate nature to the mere mortal like me?

Maybe start with what’s real to you. Our thoughts, emotions and actions are real to us.