Why is arguing and debating frowned upon?

[Truthority]

I think this whole "i dont wanna argue with devils" thing Leo's got going is really silly and intellectually lazy. In fact it is also a spiritual disservice to your fellow man. Cowardice. 

The ones who struggle the most in ignorance and darkness are the ones who need love the most.

Otherwise who will love the loveless?

This is a forum for crying out loud. The point is to discuss, converse, intellectualize, etc. Why is that such a crime?

Being all spiritual woowoo positive law of attraction is for solo, silent, wordless, offline. 

BOTH are important and I love that shit too.

I mean if someone is being unreasonable, call them out. Bring up your points. Let truth prevail. 

And if they are being a complete asshole. Bring that out too. School them! 

I demand the people I surround myself with to call me out on my own bullshit. Because i am the master of bullshitting. 

I don't get you Leo... You are so smart yet dissonant in your thinking.

You make brilliant points yet you contradict yourself so much. 

You encourage us to try things out for ourselves in your videos and NOT to believe you... which is good

But then you say, don't just argue against you or make reaction videos and start debates. 

Why are you so against debating? 

Why don't you want to be questioning? 

Shouldn't your views stand up to scrutiny. 

Why not jump on a few calls with people like zzzenn. 

Stop being such a selfish cu** who thinks his shit smells sweeter than others. 

You are on youtube. Part of a community. 

Stop being so elitist. Arrogant. Makes you look like a prick. If i saw you i'd give you a good whack!

When i start a youtube and win grammies i'm totally gonna invite you to come talk with me and call you out on your bullshit when you say shit and dont wanna talk to anyone. 

Stop isolating yourself. 

It's boring and lame. 

I mean isn't the use of language and thoughts itself a forum of debating with ourselves. 
You have thoughts and select ones that make more logical sense than others. 

Yes even you Leo. 

Actually you are more like Krishnamurti who Osho said appeals to intellectual folk...

The universe is logical. Mathematical. And spiritual. It's not either or. It's both.

There's no way out of it. Otherwise you wouldn't be trying to intellectualize something that cannot be intellectualized. 

You still have faith that logic and mind and western scientific reductionist paradigm is all there is. 

You ARGUE otherwise but you are projecting your insecurity in the form of 3 hour videos. Basically your whole work is an argument AGAINST the very thing you are doing. 

Please don't remove this thread. 

I came here for a reason. 

If I am wrong I deeply and humbly want to experience it. 

I've done the psychedelics and practises. 

I've experieced ego death, many awakenings, even Absolute Love. 

I get it. 

But I still think all this internet and discussion is just logic logic thought thought science philosophy intellect. 

There might be a world beyond it. I'm not entirely convinced that there is even an objective reality. I think the evidence is weak. 

And science is not the only method for attaining knowledge but it seems to be the best we've got to get reliable data about the seemingly perceived outside world. 

It's easy to say it's all a dream and not real and just god imagining and masturbating and blablaablaa

But at the end of the day we're a bunch priviliged white people with computers talking to each other across the world. 


God created all this. Sure. 

But not using yoga or psychedelics. 


Lets get real folks. 

You want to doubt science and say the logical atheist paradigm is invalid. 

Yet you make videos about politics. 

And sell a course on Life Purpose and a book list. 

All intellectual pursuits btw. 


I think science and spirituality both have a place here. 


Debate and argument is part of the game. 

If you're not interested, keep the books closed and the computers off. 


Stop bullshitting yourself and everyone. 


At least practise what you preach. 


Much love and respect


But truth is my GOD. 


I don't give a fuck who i offend, 


(And Kieran, before you come crusading here again to defend your guru, fuck off with love my man). 

I know you are stalking me, i can see you viewing my profile

Over  and out

This is serious shit. 

I saved it and will post on my blog if deleted so find me there. 



See y'all on monday


More madness and poetry and playlists coming next week



I really like this place


Lots of great people here


Smart and wise and beautiful


But y'all gotta sort out this DEVIL shit and stop projecting your SHADOWS onto others


I probably do it too


But at least i'm willing to put my cards on the table

There are no devils

There is only things we do that may seem devilish to others who are scared that they might have to be vulnerable



The brightest beings have the most  trouble dealing with their own perfection.


Love you all



PS. dont be lazy with your mind. Love is action. Life is movement. And dont be a selfish cu**. 

Yeah yeah i'm no saint

Working hard on this shit on myself on the world


We are the world

Politics starts with how we talk to each other right here right now. 

Conscious politics is not some THING or some ONE out there in some bullshit lection. 

There is no America. 

We are world citizens. 

WAKE THE FUCK UP


This is our community

It's time to step up

 

next level

Humanity 3.0

5.0

We're all BILLIONAIRES


Lets dance motherfuckers. 

[Aeris]

You're my new favorit member 

A lot of truth here

Leo thinks he read 1000 Books did 100 trips alone. So he knows better.

He has Always been arrogant. Not that it is a problem. It's part of needed to build something. But that's a fake self confidency.

But we are not only here to judge leo. But ourself too.

We work on the shoulders of giant..

But leo still thinks he got everything by himself.

All his récents 'lol' show his ego kick hard.

He would be better remaining ghost instead of bs everyone. 

He behave like me here 2 years ago. So I know what immaturity is.

Not a problem It's fun. But 'me' I never leaded this community.

Maybe leo is tired with self dev.

Is intellec is very high. But It's like @Joseph Maynor describe. Good points same conclusion for me without projecting yours.

I can tell from what I've seen ( there is surely bias ). Leo never put his head and eyes through many peoples.

Being a part of a group is a hard work. It require skills. It require a work in 'flowing communication'

Most people just 'devilize' their weakness instead of beating them. I m guilty myself

Edited August 10, 2019 by Aeris

[Bill W]

1 hour ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Because debating like a gentleman/gentlewoman requires social maturity (interpersonal development).

Nice one. Agree. 

@Aeris i like your points as well. 

@Truthority I have enjoyed a lot of your posts. They are like a guilty pleasure. Although this post feels like it's the result of you gagging a few times and then vomitting lol. I'd be careful about the whack comment as taken literally could be seen as a aggressive and crossing the line even if said in jest. Don't get yourself banned as you are probably needed on here. With Keiron I don't think he's what you think he is. He just shoots from the hip and is quite expressive in his posts from what I see. He seems a genuine person. I don't think he is someone that needs calling out on a post that's directed at Leo. 

[Forestluv]

To those unaware of a bridge, trying to cross the river on a raft seems like a good idea. 

[Yog]

All the amazing ways people express love.

A man looks
at the fish in his hand
drowning in
air

He knows he was it
once so long ago
gasping, breathing in
air

How is it like that.

[SunnyNewDay]

why let it bother you? you are free to take a different perspective and he is free not to engage with yours if he wishes. Leo is a human being just like all of us and that right there means for some of us a boundary of friction between our interactions. If it bothers you, change the channel, his posts aren't keeping you from having your own awakening or discoveries through your own direct experience. 

[Knock]

What you learn on this path, is that you don't truly know anything. 

Debating is an aggressive stance coming from the ego, like putting a wall between you and someone else. 

Sincere seeking however is about breaking the wall down, inviting others to share with you. 

If you are here to prove a point, you are not here to learn. Most people are here to learn. Stay humble. Ask questions sincerely. That is when you will grow. 

[Shadowraix]

If you are a teacher, a student who approaches with intent of pushing their own views will not be receptive to your teachings. They turn it into an ego battle. 

Coming to a teacher to learn only to reject their teaching and call them arrogant doesn't sound like a place of sincere seeking but position maintenance. 

Pick and choose your battles to accomplish what your goal is. Would a teacher in this work feel the need to defend themselves in front of those not receptive? 

Edited August 11, 2019 by Shadowraix

[Aeris]

5 hours ago, SunnyNewDay said:

why let it bother you? you are free to take a different perspective and he is free not to engage with yours if he wishes. Leo is a human being just like all of us and that right there means for some of us a boundary of friction between our interactions. If it bothers you, change the channel, his posts aren't keeping you from having your own awakening or discoveries through your own direct experience. 

We do not condemn. I would gladly support leo in his work. 

Anyway I'll keep working on me. Leo isn't my focus & I have a lot of respect whatever his choice. If being an hermit is his way.. his own plan & life.

@Keyhole dépend the 'lvl' of the 'debat'.

Not all débats are useless when you use ideas like pièces of reality and not as piece of your legs/arms.

 

[SerpaeTetra]

Maybe arguing with the devils equates to doing tedious work, which he has done for a few years now.  How long can one keep doing such work?  He might be focusing his time on bigger things.  There is plenty of the more foundational info on this site and his videos where he doesn't want to keep answering the same questions over and over.  

[SOUL]

Yes, why frown.

[Truth Addict]

@Truthority

I couldn't read your whole post. If you want me to read, then you need to be more brief, or you need to have an interesting style that could keep me going. That's my feedback for you. 

I'll just answer your main question:

11 hours ago, Truthority said:

Why is arguing frowned upon?

Arguing is a tool that you can use to convince others of your ideas, so that you can work together towards the same goals. It's an act of teaching, not learning. Teaching is an act of talking and arguing. Learning is an act of listening and working.

For you to develop yourself, you would have to be a student, so you'd have to stop arguing and listen to what others have to say with an open mind.

Of course, all arguments are untenable as Leo explained in one of his videos. He taught that arguing is pointless using his own arguments. If there is a lesson to learn from that, it would be that you're free to argue for your own specific agendas, and you wouldn't be wrong because arguing is relative to your goals. For Self-Actualization purposes, arguing is not very powerful, since it's mostly about learning.

So, you're here on Leo's forum trying to teach him. He might listen and learn from you, I believe he does, but he probably will not admit it, since he has to maintain his teacher identity. There's not a single teacher that likes to get argued against by his or her students. Arguing destroys all the grounds that you can use to stand on as a teacher. But for you to operate as a teacher (identity), you need to ground yourself in something, whatever that is. Without that ground, who will ever listen to you? How are you going to survive without people listening to you and buying your wisdom? You see? Survival is highly intelligent, and so are Leo all other teachers and gurus. Leo is the coolest guru though! He's so knowledgeable, open-minded, modern, and down-to-earth. He makes mistakes and admits them, he's after all just a human being like the rest of us. Being a teacher does not mean infallibility, it rather means that the students should support their teacher and correct them with love and respect.

Dropping a teacher's agenda? You're simply asking for too much.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Truth Addict

[LastThursday]

@Truthority if I invited you into my house and then you called me a cu**, I know exactly what I'd do.

Like it or not, this is Leo's forum first and foremost. You should at least show some courtesy. If you don't like his style, then lead by example and set up your own forum and put out weekly videos, maybe I'd even follow you?

[Leo Gura]

12 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

To those unaware of a bridge, trying to cross the river on a raft seems like a good idea. 

The Force is strong with this one.

Basho would be proud.

[Aeris]

53 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

@Truthority if I invited you into my house and then you called me a cu**, I know exactly what I'd do.

Like it or not, this is Leo's forum first and foremost. You should at least show some courtesy. If you don't like his style, then lead by example and set up your own forum and put out weekly videos, maybe I'd even follow you?

3 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

@Truthority

I couldn't read your whole post. If you want me to read, then you need to be more brief, or you need to have an interesting style that could keep me going. That's my feedback for you. 

I'll just answer your main question:

Arguing is a tool that you can use to convince others of your ideas, so that you can work together towards the same goals. It's an act of teaching, not learning. Teaching is an act of talking and arguing. Learning is an act of listening and working.

For you to develop yourself, you would have to be a student, so you'd have to stop arguing and listen to what others have to say with an open mind.

Of course, all arguments are untenable as Leo explained in one of his videos. He taught that arguing is pointless using his own arguments. If there is a lesson to learn from that, it would be that you're free to argue for your own specific agendas, and you wouldn't be wrong because arguing is relative to your goals. For Self-Actualization purposes, arguing is not very powerful, since it's mostly about learning.

So, you're here on Leo's forum trying to teach him. He might listen and learn from you, I believe he does, but he probably will not admit it, since he has to maintain his teacher identity. There's not a single teacher that likes to get argued against by his or her students. Arguing destroys all the grounds that you can use to stand on as a teacher. But for you to operate as a teacher (identity), you need to ground yourself in something, whatever that is. Without that ground, who will ever listen to you? How are you going to survive without people listening to you and buying your wisdom? You see? Survival is highly intelligent, and so are Leo all other teachers and gurus. Leo is the coolest guru though! He's so knowledgeable, open-minded, modern, and down-to-earth. He makes mistakes and admits them, he's after all just a human being like the rest of us. Being a teacher does not mean infallibility, it rather means that the students should support their teacher and correct them with love and respect.

Dropping a teacher's agenda? You're simply asking for too much.

You all right on certain point but careful with the sucking tits. Btw I shouldn't have bashed Leo the topic impregnated me with an energy. 

I understand the position of human being and shouldn't have bashed. Not my resort. It's not my work and I'll not pretend to know better.

to know what should be good for him when all I should know should be about my own map.

I m sure he has been eating kg of hate and critic so far he prob knows.

 Just that you know it doesn't come as a real critic from me just ego observation. 

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by Aeris

[Truth Addict]

17 minutes ago, Aeris said:

You all right on certain point but careful with the sucking tits. Btw I shouldn't have bashed Leo the topic impregnated me with an energy. 

I understand the position of human being and shouldn't have bashed. Not my resort. It's not my work and I'll not pretend to know better.

to know what should be good for him when all I should know should be about my own map.

I m sure he has been eaten kg of hate so far.

Just that you know it doesn't come as a real critic from me. Better think twice next time.

We're just taking the OP's advice, we're arguing against him.

[ajasatya]

@Truthority Arguing feeds devilry. Arguing requires attachment to points of views, which is counter-productive to self-actualization work. Good luck.

[Commodent]

It took me countless heated discussions and inner turmoil until I realized that this was something I didn't want to do ever again. It simply drains my energy for no good reason. Sure, discussions are fine, but not back and forth bickering.

Argue all you want, but just know that this might not be the place most receptible for it. You would probably have better chances at Reddit.

[d0ornokey]

The distinction been arguing and discussing 

Discussing:

The people have an intent to understand each others perspective. They are willing to allow they ideology to be wrong. There is a genuine curiosity for understanding the other's opinion. He may be aware that arguing without understanding the other is ignorant. He may be aware that perspectives are partial. He may be aware of his own self deception of sinply trying to defend his opinion instead of questioning it. 

Arguing:

A strong defense of one's own opinion. There is a loss of curiosity for the other's opinion. There may be strong anger and insecurity. There is circular reasoning that tries to defend its own own viewpoint aggressively, without questioning its core assumptions. The user is unaware of the core assumptions he has made. The user justifies his opinion religiously. 

Edited August 11, 2019 by d0ornokey

[Consept]

Its a tough one because on the one hand you want Leo and those like him to get into debates and argue points but on the other hand its essentially pointless arguing with those that have already made theyre minds up or are talking from a completely different paradigm. 

Consider all the so called enlightened masters, Mooji, Adyshanti etc none of them appear on mainstream outlets and if they do they have to severely water themselves down. The only one you might get is Sadhguru but mainly in India and mainly because Hinduism is the mainstream religion and it fits with his message. So the reason i believe is that to experience this knowledge you have to sincerely seek and not go into it just strengthen whatever pre conceived notions you have. What that can lead to is what we're seeing with the Mooji thread on this forum.

So a materialist v non duality debate is as pointless as a materialist v creationist debate in both cases everyone has made theyre mind up, its just that the non dual perspective is a dropping of all paradigms   

 

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by Consept