Creative and Emotional types require a different path to enlightenment

[Martin123]

16 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

those expressing superiority also have underlying inferiority dynamics.

I think this is also a superb thing to say. This just comes to show that every narcissist is actually an empath in the making, because beneath the layers of delusion of grandeur and self-absorbption lies a mountain of inferiority. Climbing this mountain is then the feminine path, that empaths are born into.

[Martin123]

@zeroISinfinity Eyyyyyyyyyy
Wawing my angel-wings at you. 

[zeroISinfinity]

@Martin123

12 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

 

 

Narcissists are ungrown kids where False self is in total control. The way they abuse You is the same way they were abused. 

[Martin123]

1 minute ago, zeroISinfinity said:

Narcissists are ungrown kids where False self is in total control. The way they abuse You is the same way they were abused. 

yeah...But that doesn't make it okay. And im only saying that because we can sometimes act compassionately while being enablers to abuse.
The first step to recovery of any kind of abuser is a sincere phone-book long letter of apologies to all that they've hurt.
It is true that they are emotionally at the level of a child, but simultaneously they are predators that hurt people. 

[zeroISinfinity]

You can't help or heal Narcissists (maybe mushrooms?). So take care love yourself and regain full control over your life. 

Learn to be badass and yeah swear a lot. ?

Edited August 12, 2019 by zeroISinfinity

[Martin123]

@zeroISinfinity Absolutely true.
Sending waves of love your way <3. 

[Forestluv]

13 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

The most reliable trait here to know who is where on the spectrum is self-absorbption and arrogance. People like this get too wrapped in their own viewpoint that stops them from seeing the reality of other people. Far end of the spectrum is narcissism. The other end of the spectrum is codependency, where most empaths find themselves residing, because they have already been born with an expanded viewpoint that allows them to conceive and feel the reality of others. In terms of evolution they are more evolved because of their capacity and openness. 

I also like using a spectrum. From my experience, I’d estimate that about 20% of people are oriented by empathy. They feel their own needs/feelings/desires and the needs/feelings/desires of others. Thus, their sense of well-being is dependent both on themself and the other. For example, if I’m at an amazing concert that I would normally enjoy, yet my girlfriend is upset - I feel that upset and I can’t enjoy the show. I would find it very difficult to just allow her to be upset and do my thing and enjoy the show. Her upset is also my upset. I would have a strong desire to resolve the upset. Not just for her, but for me also. I would want to know why she is upset and how we can make it better. For example, if the music is too loud for her, I would want to move further back (even if that means giving up our great spot close to the stage). Or, I might feel bad that I forgot to bring the earplugs. Most people have some degree of this and wouldn’t be a jackass to their gf, yet those far on the spectrum are oriented this way. On the other end of the spectrum would be the 20% of people that don’t relate through empathy. There’s nothing inherently wrong with this, it’s just a different orientation. They would see interactions as more transactional and how they will benefit. They could still be nice to others, yet the underlying motivation is not a desire for mutual wellness and harmony - it’s more oriented toward self benefit and wellness. At the extreme would be narcissists, which are highly attracted to empaths, since they are relatively easy to extract from, manipulate and take advantage of. I’ve been in several of these types of relationships, in part because I could not image or understand how anyone could be oriented like this. It was really confusing and there were all sorts of healthy dynamics - as you mentioned - co-dependency, people pleasing, seeking approval/validation, being hyper self-critical, taking on too much responsibility, including other people’s feelings. 

Yet, I think it’s also important to note that an empathetic orientation is not inherently bad. Within healthy dynamics, it is an amazing trait to connect and communicate with others. 

In the context of this thread, I would say that people with a strong orientation toward empathy with others will resonate differently with their environment, groups, teachers, teachings etc. Similarly, someone that has a natural tendency toward introversion will resonate differently than those with strong extroversion tendencies. Overall, I think it can be helpful to know natural orientations and flow with it. For example, awareness of the five love languages can be helpful in the development and seeping of a relationship. Awareness of a student’s natural learning style can be helpful while teaching calculus. To me, it seems like knowing a person’s natural tendencies and orientation would also be helpful along a spiritual path. I’ve sat in Dharma talks that were extremely intellectual, with lots of historical dates, locations and names. I don’t resonate with that and at times I didn’t hear anything being said. It’s not that I was disinterested and unmotivated for spiritual growth, it’s that the approach didn’t resonate. For many years, I assumed there must be something wrong with me because I wasn’t getting it. This was reinforced in the environment, since the leaders were attached/identified with their approach as being the best for all. In part, because that was the approach that seemed to work for them.

[Martin123]

3 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

For many years, I assumed there must be something wrong with me because I wasn’t getting it.

Exactly! It's just the wrong kind of path for us... it's like eating cat food as a dog... ain't right

[Martin123]

37 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Yet, I think it’s also important to note that an empathetic orientation is not inherently bad. Within healthy dynamics, it is an amazing trait to connect and communicate with others. 

I think you could almost say that it's inherently good!
It's the beautiful trait of attunement. The cure for codependency isn't to give up attunement, it's only to develop the ability to prioritize our own needs while being attuned simultaneously. That way we can actually estimate whether the person we are with can meet our needs very easily. If you don't find that the case, instead of feeling bad and thinking there is something wrong with you because the other person can't give you what you want, you find a way to meet your needs in some other way, without making it anyone's fault.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Martin123

[Rinne]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I have decided to close Joseph Maynor's account on this forum. It was just becoming too much of a distraction.

Just letting you guys know.

Lol

[DrewNows]

 

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

I also like using a spectrum. From my experience, I’d estimate that about 20% of people are oriented by empathy. They feel their own needs/feelings/desires and the needs/feelings/desires of others. Thus, their sense of well-being is dependent both on themself and the other.

I don’t really agree here. The empath bases their own needs/feelings/desires on those of others, always putting themselves second, if at all. A secure person will take both their own needs and the needs of others.

Your example about the concert, what is most likely to happen between a narc and an empath is the empath would feel it would be immoral to speak up about their own needs so they would reluctantly suffer in silence while the narc would not even consider their needs. Others might think a narc is being a jackass not giving a shit about the empath’s needs but in reality they are operating on the same page for their dynamic 

[DrewNows]

2 hours ago, DrewNows said:

 

I don’t really agree here. The empath bases their own needs/feelings/desires on those of others, always putting themselves second, if at all. A secure person will take both their own needs and the needs of others.

Your example about the concert, what is most likely to happen between a narc and an empath is the empath would feel it would be immoral to speak up about their own needs so they would reluctantly suffer in silence while the narc would not even consider their needs. Others might think a narc is being a jackass not giving a shit about the empath’s needs but in reality they are operating on the same page for their dynamic 

@Serotoninluvdoes this make sense to you or had I misinterpreted what you’re saying? 

[DrewNows]

@Keyhole thank you for clarifying 

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, DrewNows said:

I don’t really agree here. The empath bases their own needs/feelings/desires on those of others, always putting themselves second, if at all. A secure person will take both their own needs and the needs of others.

That is certainly a dynamic for an empath. By feeling/experiencing that of others, an empath could try to find inner relief by trying to please someone else. I think that would be a very common dynamic.

I would say most people (perhaps 80%), have the capacity for empathy at various degrees. For someone far over on the spectrum, empathy becomes fundamental to their orientation. At this pole on the spectrum, an empath doesn’t utilize empathy here and there dependent on conditions. It’s nearly always there guiding the experience and orientation.

I consider empathy to be a type of sense or ability, similar to how I would consider intuition and creativity. Undeveloped, immature, traumatized empathy can lead to confused and unhealthy expressions. For example, when I was a kid I was in tune with other people’s feelings. I just sensed it. My mom would be angry and I felt that anger - it was upsetting to me and I wanted relief for both myself and her. I would ask why she was angry and if I could help. She may respond “I’m not angry!!! Leave me alone!!!”. This was confusing to me. I was just a kid. I felt her anger and upset, yet she told me I was wrong and she wasn’t upset. This caused confusion. And it wasn’t just her. I would sense people all around me with empathy and they would deny their feelings - leaving me confused. “I wasn’t embarrassed.”, “I wasn’t afraid”, “I enjoyed the party” and on and on. I was so oriented toward empathy, it didn’t occur to me that people lie about and mask their feelings. As well, I was often told by others that I didn’t feel a certain way or that I shouldn’t feel a certain way and that I should feel a certain way. To most people, this may seem odd and annoying - yet they learn how to play the game and do it themselves to various degrees and understand when others are doing it. Yet to me, it was deeply confusing. It’s a form of gaslighting and has driven me insane at times. As a result, the truth became really important to me. Not just for a functioning relationship, yet also for my sanity. 

So I can see a dynamic in which an empath places needs/wants/desires of others as their own, to get relief from experiencing negative energy of others. Yet, I would consider this one dynamic of an empath I. Inter-personal relationships, yet not how an empath is defined. An empath is much more expansive than that. That is occurring within a more expansive empath. As well, I would consider that an unhealthy, immature, negatively conditioned dynamic. When that gets resolved and an empath starts to develop their heightened empathic abilities, watch out. It’s a form of magic. It would literally seem paranormal to “normies”. 

2 hours ago, DrewNows said:

Your example about the concert, what is most likely to happen between a narc and an empath is the empath would feel it would be immoral to speak up about their own needs so they would reluctantly suffer in silence while the narc would not even consider their needs. Others might think a narc is being a jackass not giving a shit about the empath’s needs but in reality they are operating on the same page for their dynamic 

The example of the concert would be for an empath with another empath or a normie. A mature empath can certainly express there feelings, desires, needs etc. No one is better at it than a mature empath. Yet for an immature empath with unhealthy conditioning, it’s very different. As you mentioned, they might feel unworthy/intimidated/confused/reluctant to express their own needs. If they were with another empath, this dynamic might get relieved since the other person, also being an empath, would sense distraught in the other person and want to resolve it. Yet with a narcissist, it gets amplified in the opposite direction and their energy mixes with my own and can become overwhelming. It wouldn’t just be suffering in silence without getting my needs met. I wouldn’t even know what my needs were anymore and I might start thinking I did something wrong and things were my fault. I may feel bad that we were not enjoying the show because of me, yet uncomfortable to express this due to confusion and feeling intimidated by narcissist energy. A narcissist senses this in an empath and preys off of it. This makes things even worse because empaths want openness and expression. I’d be sitting their feeling her sour energy and wanting to shout out “What’s going on? Just tell me what’s going on”. Yet due to unhealthy dynamics, this might not be possible with a narcissist or would open the door to being manipulated and taken advantage of. It’s a really uncomfortable and healthy dynamic. Yet this kind of stuff does not define an empath, it’s just one of many empathic-related dynamics they can be involved in. I’ve also been involved in beautiful, loving, magical empathic-related dynamics as well.

[DrewNows]

Thanks for sharing your experience

5 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

I consider empathy to be a type of sense or ability, similar to how I would consider intuition and creativity. Undeveloped, immature, traumatized empathy can lead to confused and unhealthy expressions.

Hmm but isn’t this how most heightened empathy is developed? Sounds like you were super susceptible particularly to irregularities and maybe even negative energy. Like a defense mechanism is activated in specific situations and boom you’re flooded with response energy 

5 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

It’s a form of gaslighting and has driven me insane at times. As a result, the truth became really important to me. Not just for a functioning relationship, yet also for my sanity. 

I hear ya there, I remember the first time I realized I had gaslighted my little sister, had been in deep pain myself and so it took a while for me to realize and own up to it, felt really bad 

5 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

The example of the concert would be for an empath with another empath or a normie. A mature empath can certainly express there feelings, desires, needs etc. No one is better at it than a mature empath. Yet for an immature empath with unhealthy conditioning, it’s very different. As you mentioned, they might feel unworthy/intimidated/confused/reluctant to express their own needs. If they were with another empath, this dynamic might get relieved since the other person, also being an empath, would sense distraught in the other person and want to resolve it.

All good stuff appreciate your perspectives, I better watch it overthinking all these dynamics, ever-so complex, and theirs only me I can really actually influence 

Here’s an example of what I would consider codependent empath: my mother: she’s unable to excuse herself from a conversation with a complete stranger because she doesn’t want to offend them, workaholic, can’t say no to anyone, but tends to explode on those she loves when enough stress builds up, she’ll find someone to treat badly, my step dad mainly because they could never communicate well enough...anyways maybe I’m biased and my needs to change the people in my life has always been manipulative narc behaviors 

I feel like the dynamic between a narc and a codependent empath is like they subconsciously sign a contract agreeing to meet all the needs of the narc, only consciously this is not always understood by the empath and so there’s a lot of confusion and frustration as you said. And the narc doesn’t really see how things could be any other way without feeling a lack of needs being met 

Edited August 13, 2019 by DrewNows

[Angelite]

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I have decided to close Joseph Maynor's account on this forum. It was just becoming too much of a distraction.

Just letting you guys know.

Hahahaha I thought he is your Best friend X Coach

You guys are funny ~~