Is Jordan Peterson having a middle life crisis?

[Yog]

@Aliman He gets into Heidegger-ish territory in his personality lectures, check it out:
 

Also some of it in here.
 @Serotoninluv you may also want to poke your head in. These are good examples of him talking of the downsides of :
"external, universal, objective reality" viewpoints and the same ways of dealing witch consciousness and being. And the psychological implications of using it as your primary axiom.
 

@Aeris
-I'd say he embodies theoretical post-modernism and uses it all the time and is perfectly aware of that.

-What he is against is the applied post-modernism, applied in the sense of adopting it as a world view. Something you see with youth students or young professors.
It is not possible because of relativism and pluralism. If adopted as a  world view (and people will do that and not use it as a tool ) it collapses onto itself and regresses to blue totalitarianism. Something Ken Willber points out on multiple occasions. Its an impression you get when you watch more of his stuff.


@Etherial Cat
Yes, he is quite often exposed to Yellow ideas, and he swims like a fish in yellow waters. You rarely see him talk with that high gear of people. So it is best seen in his personal lectures. Also some, but not a lot of turquoise insights, borderline non-dual. This political talks he does attracts just so much projection. He is not best represented trough it. Also those sparks of existential anger and bad top-down stage lighting make it worse.
He has let his tongue loose sometimes and offsync things. He is not a knight.

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Yog

[Forestluv]

@Yog I didn’t say JP cannot philosophize about an external, universal, objective reality. That is at an Orange level. Orange intellectuals can be very sophisticated with philosophy, including metaphysics and existentialism. Rather, I said JP has a fundamental belief in an external, universal, objective reality. I should add “moral” in there as well. . . . The term “belief” is probably not the best. The term “assumption” or “orientation” may be better, since awareness of this is revealed in Tier2 - of which JP has not embodied. 

It is common to confuse sophisticated Orange intellect for yellow. Someone can have a sky high intellect and still be Orange. Yellow is a transcendence of the intellect. That is one reason green is so important, because non-intellectual modes of being and communicating arise. Rising into Tier2, the personality construct is largely transcended and intellectual (Orange) and non-intellectual (Green) modes of being become integrated and the being utilizes all modes of being (although their may be more weight toward certain modes). 

Once yellow is embodied, deficiencies are totally obvious (such as JPs deficiencies in green and lack of understanding/embodiment of yellow level relativism).For someone transitioning into Tier2, they start learning how to spot it. For example, Orange intellectuals will want to identify as Yellow and disregard green. They will come across as a faker, regardless of their intellectual level. They can go sky high with Orange intellect, yet that ain’t it. An Orange that wants to identify as yellow will not understand green or be able to use those modes of communication. Someone like Wilbur can skimp on green and have deficiencies, yet one cannot fully bypass it and be a well-integrated Yellow. A reliance on intellect is another sign that JP shows. That is his only tool and that’s an Orange tool. Thirdly, relativism. Not intellectual conceptualization of relativism. Direct experience and embodiment of relativism is key. JP doesn’t have it. Lastly, depersonalization. JP has attachment and identification to his ideas and worldview. That attachment/identification becomes dissolved. 

[Yog]

@Serotoninluv That is where we differ. I think that because he can switch between orange, blue, red ways of thinking in an unbiased ways, adress the issues and benefits of those forms of thinking and on top propose an integrated combined way of thinking, only implies that he is Yellow thinker. And orange would bash blue, bash red, bash green. With its !reason!

Sam Harris would be a way better of an example of orange centered thinker i would say. They disagreed on a lot of things. Just because of Sam's pull towards orange.

His talks about Metaphysics, Heidegger, Jung, Religion and many other clearly demonstrate that he has transcended orange thinking. And I do not believe he is so attached to his thoughts, its just that he thinks so intensely and grapples, that it seems like he is. The debate with Slavoj Zizek is a perfect resent example I would say.

It may seem like he has no green in him because of his beef with them and all the sewing and healing of meta-structures in blue-areas he has to do .... that makes him look like a T1.

I'd say he has integrated green, its just that he has thrown away all the useless aspects or transformed them eg:
He is pluralistic, altruistic, communal, appreciates diversity (of thought), is exploring alternative diets, respects tribal customs and contributes in them. ...ect. And has thrown away the PC, equity and all the other non functioning things.
 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Yog

[Forestluv]

26 minutes ago, Yog said:

@Serotoninluv That is where we differ. I think that fact that because he can switch between orange, blue, red ways of thinking in an unbiased ways, adress the issues and benefits of those forms of thinking and on top propose an integrated combined way of thinking, only implies that he is Yellow thinker. And orange would bash blue, bash red, bash green. With its !reason!
 

This is precisely why JP is Orange. Orange can use both blue (binary mode) and Orange (logical, analysis, spectral modes). This is expected of an Orange level person. Some Orange level people can be highly sophisticated in blue and Orange modes - especially philosophers and scientists. As well, an Orange level person does not necessarily bash lower stages - especially when they have significant grounding in that stage (JP still has grounding in blue). As well, someone can have rudimentary ability with integral and systems thinking and not be tier2 yellow. As I’ve said, Orange often finds yellow thinking to be attractive. They may try to bypass green and emulate yellow. Yet that ain’t it. JP lacks green modes of being and relating. As well he has attachment/identification to his ideas, is contracted within objectivism and has not embodied relativism. How can a being be integral if they lack green modes and relativism? How can one have yellow level fluidity when they are contracted within personality dynamics and attached/identified to ideas and see their own ideas of objective and not relative? Show me one video in which JP communicates through post-rational modes - there are none, because he can’t.

I’m not saying JP is not highly intelligent. Quite the contrary - I think he is quite high in certain (Orange) areas of intelligence. I’m not saying JP doesn’t have insights - I think he has many insights and has made contributions to psychology. As well, saying a person is not Tier2 is not demeaning or any less of a person - that form of hierarchy is no longer used that way  in Tier2.

[Yog]

@Serotoninluv I respectfully disagree.

I do not think that you can have access to that many opposing perspectives and still be orange. Its just too much. And some are way off mythic or rational charts. You just cant have that as orange. He also understands their cores quite well. goes into relativist grounds a lot too. Its just that he doesn't stay there, he grounds them in other completely different ideas. Orange cant play with this amount of diverse ideas. Orange cant even perceive them my point is.

Also I'd add that I do see that he has integrated green. Its something that you notice when you watch his non-political, non professional videos, often about family, children his Indian community, QA, even some of his non professional psychedelics stuff, .  I am saying he transcended it and had thrown away a lot of useless stuff green carries. You don't bring everything when you transcend. There is always junk in the previous stage.

We don't see the green in him because we see him in these political TV shows that are fueled with figh-or-flight predatory mood towards him. And the implicit anti left projection that is there. Projection to repeat.

There he pulls red, he also explains why. You can see him form a orange-red bridge in some fueled debates.
Only T2 can go to a stage at will. Its a side-effect of an integrated shadow.

Still I would say he has integrated pre-green stages better than he has green, thence the contrast ( buffed up with external political BS)
 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Yog

[Forestluv]

22 minutes ago, Yog said:

@Serotoninluv I respectfully disagree.

WE don't see the green in him because we see him in these political TV shows that are fueled with figh-or-flight predatory mood towards him. And the implicit gazing anti left projection that is there. Projection.

We don’t see the green because there is no green. No excuses.

If you want to see what a psychologist who has embodied green looks like, watch Gabor Mate. Night and day. JP ain’t got it. 

And notice how you assert JP’s Green-ness with Orange intellect. If you want to highlight one’s green-ness why not use green modes of communication? Orange-splaining green sounds quite silly.

[Yog]

 

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

We don’t see the green because there is no green. No excuses.

If you want to see what a psychologist who has embodied green looks like, watch Gabor Mate. Night and day. JP ain’t got it. 

And notice how you assert JP’s Green-ness with Orange intellect. If you want to highlight one’s green-ness why not use green modes of communication? Orange-splaining green sounds quite silly.

The quotation is head on. You just have to dig trough his stuff and find it.

The point I made was very far from orange way of thinking. It is very green in fact.
It is showing of the perspective of how a person framed in such a context will look different.
Orange doesn't bother with contextualization. It is alien to orange. Will attempt to understand and care about it, but will skip it at first glance.

How than do you see the red in an yellow person than, ofc its very sneaky.
It surely doesn't look as pure red, just jacked...... into the USB port of Yellow.
It is way different, subtle , changed and is constantly blending.

Same with green in yellow. It should not remind you of green.
Its blending and flowing. It softens things up. Gives you the ability you sink into things.
Ideas, people, nature, emotions, art.
It is not that you copy paste values.

Also his psychometric profile is misleading people, he stated that:
He is high in compassion, but very low in agreeableness.
Which means you like people a lot and can feel them,
but you hurt them being disagreeable and feel their pain.

I can resonate with that, because I have the same profile.
its a bad combo.




 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Yog

[Forestluv]

9 minutes ago, Yog said:

You just have to dig trough his stuff and find it.

Not when someone has embodied it. An empath quickly knows a cold heart. They receive this gift at green and it becomes a superpower at Turquoise.

[Yog]

True. Its a lesson spreading from purple and goes onward and onward.... Empathy, compassion.
But you'll feel a lot of cold hearts in yellow. That is for sure.

Yellow knows about all the things people are made off, it sees them on the spot. From their capacity for light, to the pure evil they can be ....it also does statistics pretty well. It wont empathize with everything that moves. Its stuck in its head again.

It will bite if threatened. It has integrated shadow, from the beasts of old to modern man. It will go naked and hunt mountain goats with spear. It will kill, laugh, cry and than roast that goat.

Point is. Don't assume yellow people are always warm, they can become quite cold ,distant and intellectual. Its a weird mix. If they are lucky to had some psychedelics they will be more compassionate. Or stayed in green a lot more you may get that. Maybe meditated. But it is not the rule.

Tha is why I said green in yellow best manifests as "deepening", it can sink into an idea, tree, sky, people, plans ect. There is your Nietzsche. He did it all the time. Peterson is on the mid-point I would say, heard him talk about people. Its an unexpected plot twist.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Yog

[Forestluv]

@Yog The rational mode of communication isn’t working for me here and I’m unable to find another channel to communicate on. . .  I wish you the best on your path ♥️ ? 

[Leo Gura]

How many times have we hashed all this JP stuff out? We've done it many times before on this forum.

Everything that needs to be said has been said. If you can't see it, God help you. I got better things to do than argue this stuff.

If you're following my work I expect you to be above this foolishness. But I also understand if you're stuck on it why you're stuck on it. You got a lot of inner work to do.

[Yog]

@Serotoninluv Hm, I though I was quite irrational. A lot of love on your path too.  ?

[Pav]

@Leo Gura It's interesting that you've chosen to dismiss the discussion at this point. Is there something you're not willing to face? Perhaps a good opportunity for some inner work.

I'm well aware of your position on JP, the points in my previous post still stand.

In this thread so far you've called JP a devil and likened his followers to Nazis, can you see how this degradation of other human beings is problematic?

@Yog I agree that green certainly does have a dark side. And that shadow can get quite ugly too. Ken Wilber, a proponent of spiral dynamics, is willing to recognise this shadow, so it's rather interesting that people on this forum are unwilling to acknowledge it and instead use the spiral dynamic model to dismiss other perspectives (and even people) as 'blue' or 'orange'. It seems that they are using this model to defend and propagate their own positionalities and avoid entertaining ideas which may pose a threat to their ideological attachments. As egos tend to do.

It goes to show you that being highly developed in one area of life does not mean you will be advance in all others. You need to dedicate the time and work to actualise in all aspects of your personal growth.

[Yog]

@Pav I edited and removed that part out of the post. Felt it is better to open another thread in the future. And it was too much for it to be here.

I do strongly agree with that and feel that this is something that should be addressed. It is easily dismissed and not even perceived. Thus its name. Its almost the norm that these "stages" are collapsed into a extremely simplistic memes around here, maybe it is the nature of the way we talk, write and read who knows. They are still memes, but way bigger and more expansive. We need to respect that.

I'll try to frame it in a non-political way.
Maybe "The shadow trough development of consciousness " or some similar name, will see.
Might also do, "integral shadows" threads for each stage. Will try to go lighter.

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Yog