Is Jordan Peterson having a middle life crisis?

[Setty]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

How can someone who does PragerU videos be taken seriously???

@Leo Gura How can someone who says brains don't exist to be taken seriously? :))

I don't know much about PragerU their channel seems to be very much conservative. And I don't know if Peterson agrees with everythnig they post. I will be on the lookout.

And you are right there are better resources than him. But how many of them resonate with so many people that are in stage blue or orange on the spiral? I think he plays an important role regarding their evelation into higher stages. But if you think he isn't really evelating them then I get it why you don't like him but I just don't see it.

But I will consider you position further it is true that in the past he said some sketchy things (especially regarding his stance on feminism) that I didn't really pay attention into because I regard him as a conscious being who would never do any harm and we all know how that stance about any authority plays out in real life. It is just so long I took attention in anything he has been doing. I have just lost track. 

[Forestluv]

@Setty A core feature of SD is that individuals are mixtures of multiple stages and that there are multiple lines of development (such as cognitive, emotional, spiritual lines of development). JP likely has some sprinkling of yellow and has had some glimpses of Turquoise. My impression of JP is that he has some blue/orange anchors, major deficiencies in green and resistance to green due to blue/orange anchors.

In the first video, he is given a softball question about individualism and he did not take an extreme individualist position. So what. That is not the bar for green or Tier2. He did not express understanding and embodiment of collective conscious. To me, he sounds like a healthy intelligent Blue/Orange level person. Blue strongly values community, so I expect JP not to be an extreme individual. Yet JP does not incorporate any aspects of green-level collective here. To me his underlying influence is a biological and evolutionary sense of collective, which is stage Orange. Richard Dawkins May say something similar.

The second and third videos: I actually think JP is pretty good on fairly good on mystical experiences and psychedelics. Regarding psychedelics and therapy, he is excellent from an Orange perspective and I share many of his views on psychedelic therapy regarding their potential, mechanisms of action and precautions for safety. I think JP has a mature view and is an important advocate. Look at the impact he had on Rubin and Shapiro. Rubin opens up about his own psychedelic use and benefits they can offer. Shapiro of all people is open to the idea of psychedelic therapy and benefits when used responsibly and with skill. I believe JP can use his authority in psychology and his psychedelic experience to open doors and shape public discourse. As well, he knows is very familiar with clinical psychedelic research data, he interprets the data correctly and presents it accurately and in the proper context. I give him major props for that.

With that said, JP ain’t Turquoise with mystical experiences and psychedelics. Not even close. He has very limited direct experiences with psychedelics and contextualizes it at predominately at blue/green. He has some awareness that post-intellectual stages of consciousness exist, yet he is on that outside looking in. As well, he has very shallow understanding of no duality. And observe how he uses the term “god”. It is weighed down by traditional religious views of god. That is how he is contextualizing it. Compare this with Ken Wilbur. Not even close. . . I’ve done over 100 trips and it is clear to me that JP has a very surface level understanding from a Turquoise perspective. Yet as I mentioned, I think he has an excellent Orange perspective on psychedelics.

The video on gay marriage. This video is a great example of JPs blue/orange anchorage. He ain’t Tier2 on this. Using the analogy with fluency, it is sooo obvious JP doesn’t speak Green. He has not embodied and transcended Green in this area. Homosexuality is an absolute softball to incorporate green. Any Tier2 person that has embodied green will not limit themselves to blue and orange frames - which is exactly what JP does. Green is a higher level and a tier2 thinker would prioritize relativism, inclusion, equality, love, relative experience and human bonding over blue and orange level tropes about traditional marriage, family values, children with same-sex parents are probably off than children with a single parent and the biological determination of homosexuality. This is so blue/orange. I think it’s great that he didn’t use derogatory terms and stigmatization, yet I think part of that is due to the interviewers and audience being predominately LGBTQ. Yet he still clearly has a grudgingly air of tolerance, uses subtle code and blue/orange frames. No way is he Tier2 in this area. Yet as I’ve mentioned, I think he can help pull red/blue up to Orange on this issue, yet no further. So I think he has some value in this regard. If you want to see a solid green/yellow psychologist I’d recommend watching Gabor Mate. He also uses Orange, yet in support of Green and Yellow. The difference between Gabor and JP is striking.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Setty said:

And you are right there are better resources than him. But how many of them resonate with so many people that are in stage blue or orange on the spiral? I think he plays an important role regarding their evelation into higher stages.

It's not enough to resonate with Blue or Orange. One has to transcend them.

I can make YT videos that resonate with stage Blue and feed their worst racist impulses, leading them towards Nazism.

I can make YT videos that resonate with stage Orange Wall Street types and help them to further exploit society and 3rd world countries with sweatshops.

Fearmongering (as JP like to do) is not an effective way to lead people up the Spiral. How can you elevate stag Blue & Orange people to the next stage -- Green -- when you fearmonger about feminists, post-modernists, relativism, LGBTQ, environmentalists, hippies, Marxists, socialists, and communists??? That sends a message to stage Blue & Orange: "Don't bother going Green. Green is delusional and dangerous. Stay Blue & Orange."

Conscious leaderships requires pointing out the limitations and dysfunctions of the current stage, not the future stage. For JP to lead people out of Blue & Orange he would have to be talking about the limitations and problems of Blue & Orange. Instead he talks about the limits of Green. Talking about the limits of Green is only helpful if you and your audience is at least Green.

JP denies the seriousness of climate change. That alone tells you the danger of his ideology.

[Setty]

@Leo Gura I think using spiral dynamics to determine qualification of a person on any issue is very limitting. It assumes one can not have useful insight into the matter if he or she is lower on the spiral and it gives undeserved qualification for people in higher stages. Just look at many turquoise people around the world. How often happens that they create a cult following in which people are so mesmerized with them that they worhip them and then they get stuck. The fact they were higher on the spiral did not automatically mean they were the right influence on people in lower stages. 

I think the biggest problem of the green stage at the moment is that most people within it did not integrate lower stages well enough. This makes them demonize lower stages and they have a similar emotional reaction to those stages as those stages have an emotional reaction to the green stage. 

Also I would like to point out that Peteron openly says that he believes psychedelics create genuine mystical experiance that transcend our material world and if that doesn't help people to raise their conciousness then I don't know what will.  

 

 

 

[RendHeaven]

@Setty I agree with you on many points. JP is useful in certain contexts, and many people on this forum, Leo included, border on demonization (though they claim not to).

Is it so hard to just accept JP for what he does? Yes he is a devil. And so are we. No need to spiritually assert yourself and your tribe over him, even if there's validity to that assertion

I also agree about your points on spiral dynamics being misused. It's far too easy to slap a color on someone and do away with anything they have to say. I loved @Serotoninluv's further elaboration on how humans tend to be a blend of various colors, but it's worrisome that this sort of nuance usually gets lost during most spiral dynamics conversations.

Now here's the part where I double cross you! 

All of this being said, I think JP's biggest red flag is simply the fact that he paints an "enemy."

In his words: "postmodern-neomarxists"

AHAHAHA! This guy is a gem.

This red flag goes for anyone, ever, by the way. Not just JP. The second that someone paints an "enemy" into their narrative, you can be certain that their words are coming from a partial, self-biased frame of reference.

This isn't to say that JP's teachings are invalid since they are partial and self-biased.

There's no superior-inferior teaching hierarchy.

It's merely a matter of "is this person ignorant?"

If they are ignorant, cool. Let them be ignorant. We live and learn.

If they are not ignorant, cool. Let them be not ignorant. We live and learn.

Edited August 13, 2019 by RendHeaven

[Leo Gura]

@Setty JP is certainly capable of making good points at times.

The question is, how much turd are you willing to tolerate in your sandwhich before you say, "Okay, this here is a turd sandwhich. Why do I keep eating this? Is there nothing better to eat?"

Fox News is also capable of making valid points sometimes. But is it really something that Americans should watch??

[Scholar]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not enough to resonate with Blue or Orange. One has to transcend them.

I can make YT videos that resonate with stage Blue and feed their worst racist impulses, leading them towards Nazism.

I can make YT videos that resonate with stage Orange Wall Street types and help them to further exploit society and 3rd world countries with sweatshops.

Fearmongering (as JP like to do) is not an effective way to lead people up the Spiral. How can you elevate stag Blue & Orange people to the next stage -- Green -- when you fearmonger about feminists, post-modernists, relativism, LGBTQ, environmentalists, hippies, Marxists, socialists, and communists??? That sends a message to stage Blue & Orange: "Don't bother going Green. Green is delusional and dangerous. Stay Blue & Orange."

Conscious leaderships requires pointing out the limitations and dysfunctions of the current stage, not the future stage. For JP to lead people out of Blue & Orange he would have to be talking about the limitations and problems of Blue & Orange. Instead he talks about the limits of Green. Talking about the limits of Green is only helpful if you and your audience is at least Green.

JP denies the seriousness of climate change. That alone tells you the danger of his ideology.

It seems to me like there is a lack of healthy blue due to the radical cultural changes that took place in the last few decades. A lot of people who listen to Jordan Peterson do not have their life sorted out at all, they do not have discipline, they do not take responsibility, they do not have purpose, they do not have meaning, which are all aspects which should be be communicated by stage blue institutions.

If you don't give people what they need, they will seek it elsewhere. You force them to go up the Spiral without learning these things first and you get dysfunctional people. I don't think we can elevate stage blue people into higher stages if we have not even establish a healthy stage blue grounding.

 

Tell me some really high quality, amazing stage blue examples that teach this stuff on a wider cultural level. Whether you like the church or not, it definitely contributed to taking people through stage blue. In fact, I often observe people who never were religious to be quite dysfunctional, hedonistic, miserable stage orange people. To me it is likely that it is due to a lack of a strong and good stage blue foundation.

 

I still think the Internet had a huge influence on the way Spiral Dynamics is playing out, because it heaves people into stages faster than they would have naturally transitioned to, leaving dysfunctions as a result of not having learned important aspects of the lower stages.

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Scholar said:

It seems to me like there is a lack of healthy blue due to the radical cultural changes that took place in the last few decades. A lot of people who listen to Jordan Peterson do not have their life sorted out at all, they do not have discipline, they do not take responsibility, they do not have purpose, they do not have meaning, which are all aspects which should be be communicated by stage blue institutions.

This is certainly true. Many young people today lack discipline and other healthy aspects of Blue.

The challenge is teaching Blue without indoctrinating people into a nationalist, anti-Green rabbit hole a la Fox News.

Quote

Tell me some really high quality, amazing stage blue examples that teach this stuff on a wider cultural level. Whether you like the church or not, it definitely contributed to taking people through stage blue. In fact, I often observe people who never were religious to be quite dysfunctional, hedonistic, miserable stage orange people. To me it is likely that it is due to a lack of a strong and good stage blue foundation.

Yes, churches and schools are probably the best examples.

I think African American churches are some of the best examples of healthy stage Blue.

Military also teaches Blue well (when it's not doing war crimes).

Quote

I still think the Internet had a huge influence on the way Spiral Dynamics is playing out, because it heaves people into stages faster than they would have naturally transitioned to, leaving dysfunctions as a result of not having learned important aspects of the lower stages.

Yes, and it also leads to demonization of all higher stages. There is a cottage industry on YT for demonizing Green. Folks make careers out of it. One such folk is JP.

[Setty]

@RendHeaven Yes! Once you have an enemy you inevitably get into a situation where your "enemy" has a good point in some manner and you have to practice quite sophisticated mental gymnastics to still frame him as a bad guy so you can retain your integrity. And that leaves you stuck ignorant and unconscious. But unfortunately it is just too convinient for people to have enemies. It is too good of a tool for survival. Peterson is very guilty of that.

When I think about it I have a lot of enemies. And I don't really mean people but more exactly "wrong" ideas. I am all into the "raising your conciousness to higher level" (I can thank Leo for that) but it makes me view "unconsciousness" as threatening. I am sure it makes me ignorant in some manner because it is me who decides what is conscious. And what do I know really. This has real imlications in the real world because now when I see China getting to the economical cealing it makes me wonder if western leaders will take notes on how to oppress free ideas just like they do in China for the sake of economic growth.

 

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

The question is, how much turd are you willing to tolerate in your sandwhich before you say, "Okay, this here is a turd sandwhich. Why do I keep eating this? Is there nothing better to eat?"

Sounds like a question "When should you levave your teacher behind because you became more developetd than him/her". That seems like a good topic for a video don't you think?  

[Odysseus]

@RendHeaven Despite your points on postmodernism the biggest red-flag about Peterson are his followers. Just look all the hate and demonization in the comments. You won't see this stuff on videos of Leo or Sadhguru. And this is no accident. He reflects his own issues, his own incapacities on his followers and vice-versa. He may does some good work in his field of study and on integration of blue and orange but this comes with the costs of unhealthy belives about other areas. 

[Leo Gura]

In the end, you gotta understand that what JP is doing, he's doing out of love. A twisted version of love.

But you should also keep in mind that what Trump is doing and what Hitler did was also done out of love.

So just because someone is doing something out of love does not mean it will turn out well for you or even for himself.

The one who suffers the most from JP's ideology is himself. He is clearly not a happy man.

[Setty]

19 minutes ago, Odysseus said:

Just look all the hate and demonization in the comments. 

@Odysseus Are you sure about that? I would argue the opposite. Go into his official channel and look into the comments under his videos and tell me people there are anything less than open-minded and loving. 

If you are refering to videos with titles "Peterson crushes ... !!!" then yes you find more negative comments there. But is it really representative of his followers or does it just appeal to anyone who wants to see people being crushed regardless of the person in the title? 

[RendHeaven]

@Odysseus Sorry but I'll have to agree with @Setty here.

Though it is true that his followers are generally suffering people, they are by no means malicious as the media paints them to be.

You'll have to go look and see for yourself. He has a Youtube channel. It's 99% people cheering each other on.

Setty is right to point out that clips of him stolen by right-wing propoganda channels contain hate because they attract a different tribe.

Be really careful when judging his following, even this requires some nuance.

Edited August 13, 2019 by RendHeaven

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

It's 99% people cheering each other on.

So is a Trump rally.

That doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

[RendHeaven]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

So is a Trump rally.

That doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

All I'm sayin is that the purported rampant hate comments are media propaganda.

Peterson is flawed and ignorant, but we must be VERY PRECISE as to how exactly this is the case, for our own sake.

"His followers are haters" is what I'll call criticism from below. You cannot say this if you've actually investigated his following firsthand.

Something like "His metaphysical beliefs are misguided" is what I'll call criticism from above. You can only say this (and really mean it) after actually investigating his metaphysical beliefs firsthand.

[Odysseus]

56 minutes ago, Setty said:

@Odysseus Are you sure about that? I would argue the opposite. Go into his official channel and look into the comments under his videos and tell me people there are anything less than open-minded and loving. 

If you are refering to videos with titles "Peterson crushes ... !!!" then yes you find more negative comments there. But is it really representative of his followers or does it just appeal to anyone who wants to see people being crushed regardless of the person in the title? 

Just looked on the comments of Petersons latest uploaded video: Top comment from a guy with a rainbow-hair-pepe profil picture and a playlist of culture war and mgtow videos. Second top comment: Pinker is a Harvard prof who doesn't have his head "...in the postmodern arse". 3rd: Thank you JP you helped me get my life together.

They don't seem that open-minded or loving to me. I'm sure they love Peterson though and he helped some to build structure or find a christian community.

[Setty]

@Odysseus Dammit shoud've said that most of the comments and not all to cover my ass.

Anyway when I investigate the comments more it seems that most of it is praise of Peterson which might be problematic if he has indeed bad influence.  Then there are comments that thank him for changing their lifes for the better which also can be problematic if it means they fight people on the left. 

I just wanted to point out that it is not as dire as people make it out to be. But now I have a feeling that I am just defending him for the sake of winning an argument so I will stop and just leave it at the fact that he indeed seems to atract some portion of the alt-right and whether he is a bad or good influence on them will be open for me.

[RendHeaven]

5 minutes ago, Odysseus said:

They don't seem that open-minded or loving to me.

Of course not. And your judgement of them is not necessarily open-minded or loving either!

Notice how these people, no matter how ignorant or paradigm locked, are not outright inciting violence, discrimination or hatred in their speech.

Hell, even the pepe guy you mentioned wrote: "Hope your wife is feeling better - best wishes"

My only point here is that calling his following malicious is just not true. I'm not saying his followers are saints.

I don't have much else to say on this topic because much of what I'm writing is becoming redundant.

It's fair to critique him - just make sure you've done lots of digging. Your initial criticism was rather weak, that's all.

[Pav]

@Leo Gura It's interesting to see how closed minded and demonising you become when it comes to politics (perhaps I'm misinterpreting you, but there appears to be some ugliness in your posts here). Have you sincerely dedicated time to listen to his teachings yourself or are you just going off of second hand reports? I ask become what you've described of JP doesn't match my own experience of him. He seems to have some pretty good ideas which a lot of people find helpful and he can be quite insightful at times, his biblical series and recounts of his clinical experiences i find interesting. Of course there are many areas where his ideas are questionable, although it would be an unreasonable standard to expect any individual to be correct about every belief they hold (or even a majority).

I'm quite wary of demonisation of certain groups and cutting myself off from differing view points. I've come to realise that no perspective is 100% false, there are varying degrees of truth to all perspectives and if we want to implement policies which leave the world better off (or at least just not cause harm) then a very well thought out and nuanced consideration of the truth behind many different perspectives (as well as their limitations) is required. This requires the setting aside of prejudice/dogma in order to place yourself in the shoes of people with different circumstances and worldviews from your own. To honestly empathise with an open mind and without ulterior agenda. Blind ideological commitment (on any side) can be rather dangerous.

It is so important that we become aware of and acknowledge our own biases and projections. The ego can be very tricky. Consciousness and surrender are key in this sort of work.

Also, you seem to place a great deal of faith in the spiral dynamic model. Its a pretty decent framework from what I can tell, but like all models it has its limitations and many aspects in which it does not capture the whole truth. Thus it is important to remain open to consider where other models/perspectives may fit reality more accurately and to be mindful not to become ideological strung up on any one set of beliefs. Perhaps you might like to consider what payoffs you receive for your commitment to spiral dynamics?

[Odysseus]

@RendHeaven I don't want to paint with a too broad brush here. I neither think the Peterson equals alt-right narrative is right nor that Peterson is used by right-wing propaganda channels. He says the things he says and he knows how the masses will interpret them.

I won't criticise his metaphysics or his lectures about symbols or jungian psychology because I'm not familiar with his views on these topics.

But IMO he is popular for his political views and his individualism-based self-help. I criticise his followers who follow him blindly on those topics.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Odysseus