Vipassana meditation and enlightenment

[Dwarniel]

I've been to several retreats, both short and long term. Goenka basically teach Vipassana meditation as a path to enlightenment, and of course that it was by this technique (only) Gautama became enlightened as well.

I most certainly feel benefits from the technique, but I'm sceptical if it's even possible for a layman to become enlightened by meditation only. There's only so many hours in a day, and I work a lot... I'm also sceptical because I haven't seen a single "fully liberated" vipassana meditator. If Vipassana enlightenes you, where are the enlightened people? I've met so many serious vipassana meditators, they even live on these centres for years. But I still find them very... Reactive.. if something "bad" happens to them. 

My last question came to me after my 30 day retreat. Is the vipassana after glow coming from the work itself, or are people just happy because the hell is finally over? Lmao. If I'm honest with myself, I have to say that I don't really know. 

 

Thoughts? 

[Gili Trawangan]

I went to a 10-day Vipassana retreat. All I got from it was a boost in concentration ability. That's no small thing, but it's not what gets you enlightenment.

You have to engage in self-inquiry, and by this I don't mean asking "who am I?“. I mean relaxing attention entirely so that awareness abides in itself. At a certain point, if you're lucky and persistent, the I thought will fall and you'll realize something very special.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Gili Trawangan

[Salvijus]

@Dwarniel what is your idea of "fully enlightened" people? 

[Esoteric]

14 minutes ago, Dwarniel said:

There's only so many hours in a day, and I work a lot...

My last question came to me after my 30 day retreat. Is the vipassana after glow coming from the work itself, or are people just happy because the hell is finally over? Lmao. If I'm honest with myself, I have to say that I don't really know. 

 

Thoughts? 

Make an effort to be aware and centered as you are working. There is no excuse to not be aware. Of course it gets more difficult the more focus the work requires. But you can probably do micro-pauses here and there? Pretend you're gonna take a shit. That's 5-10 minutes of good practice right there.

I believe most practioners are happy because it is over and they made it through. Especially new ones.

[Dwarniel]

4 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

@Dwarniel what is your idea of "fully enlightened" people? 

Someone who doesn't flip if their shoes get ruined ?

 

No but seriously, I met Peter Ralston once f. ex, that was quite a different experience compared to talking to vipassana teachers/students, and it got me thinking about it. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Dwarniel

[Salvijus]

Yea but vipassana teachers.. For me they're like budhha statues sitting. So equanimous..

I think vipassana is not about self-realization like peter ralston. It's about purity, renunciation, dissolving attachments and ego. What you try to achieve in vipassana is a much higher and harder state to achieve then self-realization.

Differerent methods, traditions have differerent qualities also. A devotee would emanate a differerent fragrance also. 

11 minutes ago, Dwarniel said:

Someone who doesn't flip if their shoes get ruined ?

I'm sorry you had to see that. That's dissapointing indeed

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Salvijus

[RendHeaven]

2 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

What you try to achieve in vipassana is a much higher and harder state to achieve then self-realization.

What's your frame of reference?

[Dwarniel]

As I said, I've recieved a lot of benefits from this technique over the last 8 years... I've had a couple of cute satoris and my psychology is healthier, no doubt! But I don't want to be dogmatic about it. I think some questioning is healthy. Especially when they kind of teach that this is the only way and the true way, that makes me sceptical.

[Pacific Sage]

The waterfall effect with the experience students seems to be something to strive for with Vipassana. Goenka also speaks about the bhang state which I think is the enlightenment state. I had an experience at one of the retreats as well but it could be a result of withdrawing the sensual stimulation.

You did a 30 day retreat! Wow that's amazing. Congratulations.

[Salvijus]

1 minute ago, RendHeaven said:

What's your frame of reference?

Because in self-inquiry state of self-realization there's still cravings and aversions, attachments, still desire is very active and ego is still there. 

Vipassana is a higher state because it seeks to destroy the ego completly, to leave not a single spot, total purity. 

I heard Mooji once discribing two ways to enlightenment. One is you purify yourself more and more until you get enlightened. Another is you realize the true self, and then purity follows naturally after that slowly. 

I like how this guy describes this state of zero desire. Very poetic. 

 

[Gili Trawangan]

1 minute ago, Salvijus said:

Because in self-inquiry state of self-realization there's still cravings and aversions, attachments, still desire is very active and ego is still there. 

Vipassana is a higher state because it seeks to destroy the ego completly, to leave not a single spot, total purity. 

I heard Mooji once discribing two ways to enlightenment. One is you purify yourself more and more until you get enlightened. Another is you realize the true self, and then purity follows naturally after that slowly. 

I like how this guy describes this state of zero desire. Very poetic. 

 

True, that's why self-inquiry is referred to as the direct path. Purification first being the indirect path.

[Salvijus]

@Gili Trawangan this doesn't make vipassana inferior path. Every path has It's own benefits and problems. No path is for everybody. 

[Enlightenment]

The fastest way to enlightenment is trying many of the best techniques on yourself and finding the one/a few that works for you, not just doing vipassana.

[RendHeaven]

14 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Because in self-inquiry state of self-realization there's still cravings and aversions, attachments, still desire is very active and ego is still there. 

Vipassana is a higher state because it seeks to destroy the ego completly, to leave not a single spot, total purity.

@Salvijus I don't think that's quite True. These practices and states are not mutually exclusive, and the line between them is arbitrary.

They dovetail in many ways, and to call one practice or state superior (in your words, "higher") is ironically only tenable in the realm of relativity.

And even then, I could technically rebut you by saying that ranking "pure awareness" above "no-self realization" on the basis that the former involves NO desires while the latter DOES involve desire is only true insofar as you believe that desires should not be had.

But that would be a silly debate, really. My only point here is that there's no Truth in rankings.

Edited August 8, 2019 by RendHeaven

[Gili Trawangan]

13 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

@Gili Trawangan this doesn't make vipassana inferior path. Every path has It's own benefits and problems. No path is for everybody. 

I didn't say it was inferior, I said it's indirect. Of course, to each his own.

[noselfnofun]

@Dwarniel This is a good question, I have been on a few vipassana retreats also and have got hugh benefits from it but similar to yourself I haven't met anyone who became enlightened from it. It is a effective method but a slow one regarding enlightenment. Also you have to bare in mind The centres are mostly run by lay people so your better off going to actual proper buddhist monastery's where there are enlightened monks there. There is loads in Thailand, India ect. 

Also bare in mind not everyone will become enlightened in there lifetime due to genetics/past life, everyone could probably reach stream entry but as Leo has said before a lot of this will depend on your spiritual talent which is something you are born with. I know people who have done one ten day course and got nowhere and some people who do one course and make insane progress. There is a great thread on this on the forum somewhere. Its just rare to find people who are spiritually advanced even if you go to the right places. 

[Pacific Sage]

To think of it, I had actually told my Vipassana teacher at that point of time that I had read power of now and am doing the retreat in line with that but for new experience. Through out the retreat he constantly projected that vipassana is better than power of now.

[Dwarniel]

31 minutes ago, noselfnofun said:

@Dwarniel This is a good question, I have been on a few vipassana retreats also and have got hugh benefits from it but similar to yourself I haven't met anyone who became enlightened from it. It is a effective method but a slow one regarding enlightenment. Also you have to bare in mind The centres are mostly run by lay people so your better off going to actual proper buddhist monastery's where there are enlightened monks there. There is loads in Thailand, India ect. 

Also bare in mind not everyone will become enlightened in there lifetime due to genetics/past life, everyone could probably reach stream entry but as Leo has said before a lot of this will depend on your spiritual talent which is something you are born with. I know people who have done one ten day course and got nowhere and some people who do one course and make insane progress. There is a great thread on this on the forum somewhere. Its just rare to find people who are spiritually advanced even if you go to the right places. 

Thank you for your insights

[Haloman]

Stop this romanticizing. You are a human ape who is flesh and blood. Yes, this human ape is “part” of God and everything is consciousness but your physiology is wired for you to return in your egoic self as default no matter how much you concentrate or how much substances you take. I’m sick of reading every day the same shit for 3 years from Leo (yeah it’s my decision) that you have to work a little bit harder and so on. And now he claims that psychedelics are the most effective tool for him. Of course they are! But there won’t be a day when that psychedelic state gets permanent, because body reacts to these chemicals as poison.

p.s. On Sunday i came back from my second 10 day Vipassana retreat.

[Salvijus]

4 hours ago, Dwarniel said:

Especially when they kind of teach that this is the only way and the true way, that makes me sceptical.