Have you ever truly made a choice?

[Neorez]

Having a choice and no choice is a duality and both positions can be taken. I think this is one of those things that go full circle if you keep one way or the other. So you have free will and at the same time you don't, so just drop the whole thing and make something of your life. 

[ActualizedDavid]

 

[Nahm]

@Beginner Mind It should be under great suspicion and curiosity that you are perfectly sized between the earth and an atom, and that your heart is beating without choice, yet is your heart which sustains your life, and all you are tasked with is - making choices and enjoying it. Perhaps consider what is prior. Rather than contemplating if I make choices, contemplate if I made choice.

[Beginner Mind]

16 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Beginner Mind It should be under great suspicion and curiosity that you are perfectly sized between the earth and an atom, and that your heart is beating without choice

Yes!  The heart is beating without choice, finger nails are growing without choice, hair is growing without choice, even thoughts are appearing without choice.  With so much beyond our control, can there really be said to be any choice at all?

19 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Rather than contemplating if I make choices, contemplate if I made choice.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Can you elaborate?

[Nahm]

@Beginner Mind Just hypothetically, if you created choice itself, why would you?

[Beginner Mind]

@Nahm Not sure.  But the illusion of choice is not a mistake, I'm sure.  It's as much a part of the design of the universe as anything else.  So if you feel like the chooser, then be the chooser.  It's all good.

[Aeris]

On 08/08/2019 at 2:34 AM, Key Elements said:

@Beginner Mind did you choose to graduate from high school? That was your choice.

There is always something inside of you giving you a wise direction. It's up to you to act on it. Yes, of course, this can lead to awakening and enlightenment.

Who is this 'you' that act on it.

Maybe the delusion machine started to believe it has a choice.

Op is right but that would destroy your sense of 'self control'

Maybe there is no such thing as choice.

The op is right. When the light open for you to seek change. Was that you or the program ?

It's always the original point.

You 'believe' there is choice. 

Maybe none. Does the bird choose to fly on a choice ?

All choice made by humans is just the bird opening.

Or prove it to yourself. Can you have a true choice ?

Only one way to know. Try reality. 

But when I realised that maybe the fact of becoming aware of having the choice was maybe from a desire that wasn't a conscious choice.

Reality already maybe choose how you'll interact with her your whole life.

Prove me there is choice for a fish to fly.

 

[Key Elements]

2 hours ago, Aeris said:

Who is this 'you' that act on it.

Maybe the delusion machine started to believe it has a choice.

Prove me there is choice for a fish to fly.

You don't have to believe that you're a delusion machine just because someone else points it out at you.  Believing that you're a delusion machine comes from someone else's beliefs, and you have a choice not to get suckered into it. The question is, are you even aware that you're getting suckered into it?

That wasn't my point.

Prove to you? The point of this work is not to prove to anyone anything. If the person has an awakening, the job is to become a pointer/teacher. If you do not like or understand what the other person is saying, it's time to move on.

(Note: we're supposed to be having constructive discussions, not debating or name-calling. Nonsense debating and name-calling are against forum guidelines.)

[Beginner Mind]

Think of someone you highly respect.  Now, choose to not respect them.  Can you do it?  No, you can't.  Respect is either there or it isn't.  It's not up to you.

Think of someone you are not sexually attracted to.  Now, choose to feel attracted to them.  Can you do it?  No.  Again, you'll find that attraction is either there or it isn't.  It's not up to you.

Can you even choose to stop thinking for five minutes?  I certainly can't.

At the end of the day, it's clear that we do not really have the choice that we think we have.

[Key Elements]

It's far more complicated than that. It's just like saying does duality exist? Of course it does. Does non-duality exist? Yes. Both exist. It's not either one or the other. Which is better? There's no better or worse. 

Of course, I could think of someone I respect. Again, there's far more to it than just saying, "I have no choice but to respect this person." How do I respect him? Do I just call him up whenever I want? Of course not. He is busy with his own life. He has a life, a successful / high conscious one. So, I respect his space. That's my choice. Do I call ppl I don't respect? Nope, of course not. They go their way, and I go my way. What is the way to gain respect? Choose to find your purpose and do that. Respect will gradually come. You don't have to choose this. You could also choose to sleep all day and never find it.

[Beginner Mind]

@Key Elements We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Key Elements]

16 minutes ago, Beginner Mind said:

@Key Elements We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Yes, of course.

I could understand that during an awakening there is no choice or freewill. But, in duality, when you're embodied in the ego, it's not either this way or that way. You don't have to choose to be more towards ego -- unconscious, unaware, unadjustable, etc., etc.

[Nahm]

8 hours ago, Beginner Mind said:

@Nahm Not sure.  But the illusion of choice is not a mistake, I'm sure.  It's as much a part of the design of the universe as anything else.  So if you feel like the chooser, then be the chooser.  It's all good.

Yes. Definitely not a mistake. It is so you can share your love. But that’s your choice. Starts making sense.

[Key Elements]

This thread reminds me of this video:

Shifu has a choice to train and believe in the Panda, but he doesn't have the freewill to control Panda's awkwardness and who he is. Just like he doesn't have control over the tree being a peach tree, but he could control where to plant the seed.

[Aakash]

Choice is to decide between two or more outcomes. 

But the imagining of two outcomes itself creates the idea of a choice and therefore a chooser. 

Ultimately, being is non-dual. With the illusion of duality. But is the duality exist ? 

The answer is no it can’t, because nothing exists outside itself. However, whAt is duality ? 

It is a par-truth. A partial truth. Wrapped in a greater truth. The intent by self is choice. A partial truth. 

Enlightenment is the highest truth. So any partial truths are incorrect, because it’s non-dual. But non-dual is itself only a partial truth. 

Enlightenment is about perspective itself without attachment to its filter or lens. Non attached at all costs. The objectivity truth is that the filter can only shine a partial truth. The idea is not to be attached. 

This is how an enlightened being falls into the trap of thinking he’s enlightened. He gets attached to the filter. 

But you can’t distinguish a person who is perspective themselves or not. There are subtle hints maybe knowledge, being, awakenings, language used etc .. etc.. 

Truth realisation has nothing to do with the filter. But at this point, the person would be likely to have a non-dual filter. Unless they’re doing personal work within duality. Unattached to everything. So nothing actually happened just like you died before you died. 

So to conclude, free will can exist as long as you want it to exist. 

So your remaining free will, the illusion of it. Let’s you decide what ever filter or paradigm / perspective you would like to keep. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Aakash

[Key Elements]

1 hour ago, Aakash said:

Choice is to decide between two or more outcomes. 

Yes, correct.

There is this maid (servant) with six daughters and one son. The youngest is the son. She and her husband kept trying for a boy because they wanted a boy. They paid more attention to the boy's education than the girls'. The youngest daughter, who was working alongside her mother as a maid, told her boss that it was her fate to end up in this situation when the boss asked her if she wants to further her studies. This girl was 13. However, in this duality (Maya), one has choice. Many ppl rebelled against their parents, as you know. Your karma may be not so good, but you do have choice to get out of it no matter how hard the situation. Just be aware of the consequences if the girl rebels against her parents or not. Both choices could result in horrible consequences. Heck, some ppl escape from North Korea. It depends on how you look at it when you finally plan and make that choice. Are you going to go with the flow (singularity/white, black hole) or just give up?

I heard that in the hell realm, you don't have choice. You're embodied in this ego that knows only how to suffer. But, we're not talking about hell realm. Earth is the to love realm according to the awakening. You could choose love and reduce suffering instead of more ego and suffering.

[Aakash]

@Key Elements 

6 hours ago, Key Elements said:

Are you going to go with the flow (singularity/white, black hole) or just give up?

The answer chosen itself is still only a partial truth. All partial truths are actually objective rather than subjective. 

It is not that you yourself choose the choice. But to say what “should” have been the case under any circumstance is objective. 

It’s unfortunately still an untenable position. No amount of awakenings makes perspective itself change. However the objective truth is that in a twisted way, it makes you more enlightened. 

Awakenings are still only maya. But it’s the only definition for sorting out enlightened beings, who have become perspective itself. 

The choice itself was still not free will to undergo these awakenings. But the idea that partial filters don’t affect partial filters is incorrect. It’s intertwined as it was “intended to be “ 

so there is a point behind spreading knowledge and doing political movements 

so in this way, no wrong moves have ever been made. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Aakash

[Key Elements]

2 hours ago, Aakash said:

@Key Elements 

Awakenings are still only maya. But it’s the only definition for sorting out enlightened beings, who have become perspective itself. 

The choice itself was still not free will

Yes, I agree with what you said here. I did say earlier in this thread that there is a difference between choice and freewill. Within this Maya (to love realm), we do have choice because life is a school. Other awakenings may have indicated to you that life is a school. You do have a choice to do well in it or not.

Let me just point out that the awakening coming from God (No-self) isn't maya. It's truth. No-self isn't maya. It's an indication that you're transforming into maya.

[Aakash]

@Key Elements It’s not that I disagree. I’m saying that all awakening except no self are maya. 

You would have to break the status quo to get it redefined. To all awakenings, of which there are infinately many.

We have the appearance of choice to do well. 

There is actually nothing to do well in the long run. However, I agree in the short run. The issue of the matter doesn’t change. You still remain the perspective. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Aakash

[Key Elements]

18 minutes ago, Aakash said:

@Key Elements 

We have the appearance of choice to do well. 

There is actually nothing to do well in the long run. 

I agree that everything is already said and done. All stories and all maya are already over in the end. Everything ends in peace. However, why do you want to keep going in the strangeloop (reincarnation)? That's why we have choice. Do you want to do well in this story?