Tribal Communities.. Stage purple..?

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

Many yogis have achieved a state of unconditional love in the past. What stage of development is that, on Spiral Dynamics?

It's a mistake to try to map that to Spiral Dynamics. That's not what Spiral Dynamics tracks.

Many Indian yogis are Blue even though they could be enlightened or have amazing siddhis.

Many Japanese Zen masters are Blue too. Western Zen masters tend to be Green+

[How to be wise]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

It's a mistake to try to map that to Spiral Dynamics. That's not what Spiral Dynamics tracks.

Many Indian yogis are Blue.

But unconditional love, by its definition, means that your circle of concern has lost its boundaries. Total possession by God. I don’t see how someone could be in stage Blue at the same time.

[Leo Gura]

@How to be wise Strictly speaking Spiral Dynamics is tracking values development. Not necessarily moral development or spiritual development.

Many stage Blue yogis have an ethnocentric worldview. They could be very partial to Indian culture, holding it as superior to all other cultures. Even Sadhguru seems to not be immune to this trap to some degree.

Oddly enough, you can be conscious of Universal Love but still be a racist or misogynist. Childhood attitudes tend to run deep and enlightenment will not necessarily transform them automatically.

[How to be wise]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

@How to be wise Strictly speaking Spiral Dynamics is tracking values development. Not necessarily moral development or spiritual development.

Many stage Blue yogis have an ethnocentric worldview. They could be very partial to Indian culture, holding it as superior to all other cultures. Even Sadhguru seems to not be immune from this trap.

But a defining character of Blue is that he gets triggered internally when his community is attacked. Yet unconditional love means that nothing that happens in reality can make you feel uncomfortable. You love all of reality. If someone is in that state, then to call him Blue is a bit too much. 

[Apparition of Jack]

10 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

But unconditional love, by its definition, means that your circle of concern has lost its boundaries. Total possession by God. I don’t see how someone could be in stage Blue at the same time.

A yogi who found a respected guru at age 14, spent 15 years in a sacred cave that common folk weren't allowed to approach, had an experience of universal love and became enlightened at 29, and then went on to become a respected guru themselves, would probably reinforce the social ideas of "respected gurus", "common folk" and "sacred caves" in their teachings, especially if they didn't do any active work on their value systems and no matter how great their love for the universe was. Being enlightened and loving and having advanced social values aren't the same thing.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Apparition of Jack

[Leo Gura]

@How to be wise It's complicated and nuanced.

Take a look at Osho. He was obsessed with materialistic luxury even though he was supposedly very enlightened.

Take a look a Zen monks during WWII. They supported fascism and Japanese nationalism, even though they were supposedly enlightened.

Being awake does not mean you have an advanced mind or an advanced value system.

[How to be wise]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

@How to be wise It's complicated and nuanced.

Take a look at Osho. He was obsessed with materialistic luxury even though he was supposedly very enlightened.

Take a look a Zen monks during WWII. They supported fascism and Japanese nationalism, even though they were supposedly enlightened.

Being awake does not mean you have an advanced mind or an advanced value system.

I’m not talking about enlightenment. I’m talking about a permanent state of unconditional love. The two are very different. If someone achieves unconditional love, then by definition they love everything. Nothing can hurt them internally, because they love everything. They love all traditions (even though they may focus on their own) and they love all people. I’m sure that some yogis had achieved this state a long time ago. I don’t see how such people can be in stage Blue. 

[whoareyou]

@Leo Gura The problem here is your vague/loose definition of "enlightenment" and who you think is "enlightened" and who is not. I told you about this in the past, and will once again tell you to really re-evaluate what you think enlightenment is and who you think is enlightened - you are off the mark here, and this has been causing a lot of confusion for yourself and to your students.

I agree with @How to be wise  I don't see how a person who is fully liberated can be at stage blue for example. To me, being liberated comes with being very conscious and when you are conscious - it would be very hard to support fascists/nationalists. 

Those so called Zen Monks have been far ahead of your average person, but clearly not enlightened in my book.

There is definitely a correlation between your values, and your level of consciousness. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by whoareyou

[Brenzo2]

2 hours ago, whoareyou said:

@Leo Gura The problem here is your vague/loose definition of "enlightenment" and who you think is "enlightened" and who is not. I told you about this in the past, and will once again tell you to really re-evaluate what you think enlightenment is and who you think is enlightened - you are off the mark here, and this has been causing a lot of confusion for yourself and to your students.

I agree with @How to be wise  I don't see how a person who is fully liberated can be at stage blue for example. To me, being liberated comes with being very conscious and when you are conscious - it would be very hard to support fascists/nationalists. 

Those so called Zen Monks have been far ahead of your average person, but clearly not enlightened in my book.

There is definitely a correlation between your values, and your level of consciousness. 

From what I've understood from past conversations is that being at a stage (for example; blue) and becoming enlightened, means you are an enlightened stage blue. Then another enlightenment may be had once you transition up the spiral and once again have another enlightenment experience. 

Enlightenment has nothing to do with your book. From the point of view of the Zen Monks' book at that time you may not be enlightened either! 

I don't think Leo is vague in his crediting people with enlightenment.

I'm sure that Leo has done his research considering he fucking loves this shit out of this stuff. 

Use it as a guideline at most if you don't agree with him then I guess? You and I both know he's not budging for a couple of forum dwellers. ?. 

And plus, isn't enlightenment separate from actual transformation. For anything to change, it needs to be changed. All enlightenment gets you is nothing... right? So Osho can still be materialistic and enlightened, even if it does make for an odd combination. Right? 

The only thing enlightenment gets you is the truth: 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Brenzo2

[Leo Gura]

You guys are conflating enlightenment with other things.

Love is part of enlightenment.

The fact you gotta face is many serious Zen masters were stage Blue.

[Brenzo2]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You guys are conflating enlightenment with other things.

Love is part of enlightenment.

The fact you gotta face is many serious Zen masters were stage Blue.

Does Love get you nothing, or does it transform you? I feel like I was transformed by Love. 

And if so, if Love=Truth=Nothing

How did this change occur? Or is the 'how' irrelevant? 

Miracle? 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Brenzo2

[Leo Gura]

@Brenzo2 Nothing is Everything. Love gets you the whole universe.

Yes, you are transformed by Love. But how much exactly is hard to say. Depends on how deeply you realize it. And even so, developing the mind takes work.

[whoareyou]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You guys are conflating enlightenment with other things.

Love is part of enlightenment.

The fact you gotta face is many serious Zen masters were stage Blue.

Have you ever contemplated that the so called people that you view as "Zen Masters" were not actually fully enlightened or liberated? Try to be open to the possibility, that your view of what is enlightenment and who you view as enlightened could be wrong.

[Leo Gura]

@whoareyou Of course

But what I'm telling you is, awakenings can occur at any stage. They will then be filtered and understood through the lens of that stage.

This notion of "full enlightenment" that you guys like to use is absurd. It's sloppy and creates many foolish conclusions.

[whoareyou]

26 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@whoareyou Of course

But what I'm telling you is, awakenings can occur at any stage. They will then be filtered and understood through the lens of that stage.

This notion of "full enlightenment" that you guys like to use is absurd. It's sloppy and creates many foolish conclusions.

No it is not absurd. Your definitions are causing a lot of confusion.

You need to differentiate between nondual experience, vs liberation.

There are many more people who have had nondual experiences, and very few people who actually ever were fully liberated.

Nondual experience or many nondual experiences/awakenings =/ Liberation.

Do not get attached to the word "experience" here, it is only used so it would be understandable for people.

When one is liberated from the EGO, the things that you mentioned here would clearly be out of question.

There is a bigger fish to catch as you like to say.

Of course at any given stage, a person can have an "awakening" or "nondual experience"  - they could very easily be on their way to liberation. But do not confuse this with total liberation - which very few individuals have ever been at.

The best indicators are not the labels of "master", "monk", etc.  The best indicators are what the person embodies. Liberation comes from being very conscious, and when you are that conscious - the things that you mentioned here would be out of question.

Edited August 8, 2019 by whoareyou

[Yog]

Also there is the topic of states vs stages, different things.
And there is the topic of integration.

You may experience all that love, see those interconnections, its all me, its all god, its god looking at god.
But than you continue on walking , and yell at the damn red traffic light.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Yog

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, whoareyou said:

No it is not absurd. Your definitions are causing a lot of confusion.

You need to differentiate between nondual experience, vs liberation.

There are many more people who have had nondual experiences, and very few people who actually ever were fully liberated.

Nondual experience or many nondual experiences/awakenings =/ Liberation.

Do not get attached to the word "experience" here, it is only used so it would be understandable for people.

When one is liberated from the EGO, the things that you mentioned here would clearly be out of question.

There is a bigger fish to catch as you like to say.

Of course at any given stage, a person can have an "awakening" or "nondual experience"  - they could very easily be on their way to liberation. But do not confuse this with total liberation - which very few individuals have ever been at.

The best indicators are not the labels of "master", "monk", etc.  The best indicators are what the person embodies. Liberation comes from being very conscious, and when you are that conscious - the things that you mentioned here would be out of question.

Enlightement is a relative thing and its just the discovery of a "new world" in relative to the things you had previousely in your consiouseness.

Last year i had some kind of enlighement when I suddenly had a thought that "oh! I am already succesfull! Because I have reached this thing and this thing" and suddenly the anxiety (which takes 3 months of light-moderate anxiety/depression in average) finished overnight. And from that night I just started to feel good and It lasted 6 months and in the end of august it has lost the effect and the mood turned back to the previous state where it was in the winter (and even worse, but for shorter period).

For me it was an enlightement.

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Nivsch

[whoareyou]

@Nivsch  This is why it is best to avoid using the word "enlightenment" all together. You are using the word "enlightenment" in a very vague way. What happens, is many people who experience small fraction of liberation, or have a powerful nondual experience, start running around claiming to be "enlightened", which can't be further from the truth. The ego sneaks back through the backdoor.

Many here (including LEO), just don't understand the difference between having many insights, and nondual experiences vs actually living in a liberated state. This is a very nuanced point, and requires to you to have a lot of direct personal experience to understand this.

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by whoareyou

[Nivsch]

6 minutes ago, whoareyou said:

@Nivsch  This is why it is best to avoid using the word "enlightenment" all together. You are using the word "enlightenment" in a very vague way. What happens, is many people who experience small fraction of liberation, or have a powerful nondual experience, start running around claiming to be "enlightened", which can't be further from the truth. The ego sneaks back through the backdoor.

Many here (including LEO), just don't understand the difference between having many insights, and nondual experiences vs actually living in a liberated state. This is a very nuanced point, and requires to you to have a lot of direct personal experience to understand this.

 

I am not enlightened. I just had such an experience of how I grasp this state. 

When do you think is the liberated state?

Is it turquoise?

Or a state (without connection to any level)?

 

[whoareyou]

7 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I am not enlightened. I just had such an experience of how I grasp this state. 

When do you think is the liberated state?

Is it turquoise?

Or a state (without connection to any level)?

 

By liberation, I am talking about a lasting liberation and personal transformation, where an individual is free from the restraining and persistent confines of the energetic structures of the ego. 

Some of the things to describe an individual who is liberated: 

1) Authentic - is able to freely express themselves without being locked into EGO. A great sense of variability is there - energetically they are able to shift from non-dual to the character. They are not locked into EGO all the time.

2) Free from Egoic Projections - A person is able to see through their own egoic projections. A person in a liberated state can see that these are just their own egoic projections, attachments, and are not true. A person who would be locked into EGO, would not be able to see this and for them those egoic projections would be true.

3) Universal Love vs Personal Preferences - Living with an open, unguarded, unconditionally loving heart. Loving everything but not liking everything - an individual universally loves everything, but still has their own preferences.

Keep in mind, spiral dynamics is just a map and is not entirely accurate. Is there a correlation between the most advanced stages though and liberation? Absolutely. If you read what I wrote above, you will see how lower stages such as blue would not be compatible with liberation.