Is Bernie Sander’s medicare for all plan really the most conscious?

[Average Investor]

I got hit by an uninsured driver while having medicare. It did cover quite a bit. But I have to pay $600 out of pocket. Thing is I had just got checked to see if I was okay and not doing to die of some sort of internal damage or something I might not be aware of. Just got something to help with the pain, some sort of shot? I can't remember the name of it. And I believe the bill was thousands of dollars before the medicare. I would have been fairly crippled by the amount owed if I did not have that insurance at the time. 

 

I can't really imagine what it would have been like to not have the insurance at all. That or if the person had seriously injured me. I do regret not having uninsured motorist on my policy. But to be fair I did not really consider a circumstance like that

 

I think mostly the issue revolves around the regulation of the industry. A lot of people become the lab rat for newer medication without really realizing it. Companies can "pay off" your doctor to prescribe specific medications. It isn't the best system by far and needs a lot of help. Here in America I think you have to be quite well off to pay off doctors bills. Medicare itself really needs a lot of improvements. But possibly with quite a bit more funding this is something that could really be good. The industry as a whole needs a bit of an overhaul. 

[archi]

4 hours ago, Shiva said:

Germany, Spain, the Netherlands. These are the ones I can attest to because I lived there, but from what I've heard also France, Poland, Sweden, Belgium, Switzerland, ...

Depends on what you mean by "really work" though. Nowhere in the world will you find a flawless system, but the above mentioned are definitely better than the American system for the majority of people.

yes, I guess you should concentrate on system, US has already huge public spending and it is going to be increased ....

Public spending is 9k almost a double of what is spent in EU countries, well, I'm not sure how US wants to decrease spending and increase people coverage ... it looks like it is going to fail without some significant system overhaul. 

See:

https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm#indicator-chart

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, archi said:

I'm not sure how US wants to decrease spending and increase people coverage ... 

By cutting out the middleman and corporate profits.

[archi]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

By cutting out the middleman and corporate profits.

If that is the case then go for it, , nobody wants suckers, valid also other countries. 

Whole government system is based on leeches that just suck people's taxes ... it ain't gonna change anytime soon  .

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, archi said:

I'm not sure how US wants to decrease spending and increase people coverage

This is not merely a question of insurance coverage, this is an issue of wealth redistribution.

The fundamental problem is that the entire healthcare industry's profit margins are way too high. They are artificially high because people's lives are being held hostage in the negotiation and people are negotiating with both hands tied behind their backs due to how the healthcare industry created a cartel.

It would be like if me and a few of my rich friends bought up every source of fresh drinkable water in your state and then charged you 10x to have a drink. And when you complained about how unfair this system is, we'd invest $100 million dollars in a propaganda campaign to call you Communists.

The government is the only organization which has the leverage to renegotiate the terms of the deal.

The bottom line is, doctors & executives will have to settle for earning less money so that more people can live. That's what this whole discussion is really about and no one wants to admit it. A bold politician must rise up who will say, point-blank: "You guys will earn less money, for the greater good. Sorry, not sorry." Bernie Sanders is one such politician.

[archi]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is not merely a question of insurance coverage, this is an issue of wealth redistribution.

The fundamental problem is that the entire healthcare industry's profit margins are way too high. They are artificially high because people's lives are being held hostage in the negotiation and people are negotiating with both hands tied behind their backs due to how the healthcare industry created a cartel.

It would be like if me and a few of my rich friends bought up every source of fresh drinkable water in your state and then charged you 10x to have a drink. And when you complained about how unfair this system is, we'd invest $100 million dollars in a propaganda campaign to call you Communists.

Profit margins are too high, that is one way to look at it, I guess doctors would disagree.

Everybody wants profit, and we are used to ever increasing profit so necessarily there is going to be pressure on profit margins.

So you propose some sort of conscious capitalism , to me it sounds like an additional regulation if it is not already in place. 

(conscious capitalist = less regulated communist )

It still seems to me that the best solution is concentrate on effective use of resources (use resources and adapt regulation) rather than increased spending. This certainly has to lead to decent cut of margins. 

It cannot be that difficult to find out where the money leaks. 

[archi]

11 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Some people view it that way. Yet, there are more conscious ways of viewing government.

Greed is strong! Old ways are difficult to get rid of, you need p-delics into water .

Maybe, once all the money are on blockchain one could track down where it all flows and this way better regulate and decrease corruption. 

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, archi said:

I guess doctors would disagree.

Of course they would disagree. That's them defending their survival agenda.

You know what though? If you tell slave-owners to give up their slaves, a funny thing happens: they disagree and complain that they are being treated unfairly.

When you point out to a racist person that he is being racist, he starts to complain about reverse-racism and white genocide. That's what devils do.

We do not let such devilry deter us from creating a more fair and conscious society.

[Forestluv]

16 minutes ago, archi said:

Greed is strong! . 

Once a critical mass is green-centered, the self greed dynamics change at the population level - and continue to do so as more individuals evolve into yellow and turquoise. Look at the difference regarding self-centered greed of Lyndsey Graham and Alexandria-Ocasio Cortez. Graham is red/blue/orange self centered and AOC is Green community centered (and beginning to enter yellow level integrative systems thinking).

[Inliytened1]

34 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is not merely a question of insurance coverage, this is an issue of wealth redistribution.

The fundamental problem is that the entire healthcare industry's profit margins are way too high. They are artificially high because people's lives are being held hostage in the negotiation and people are negotiating with both hands tied behind their backs due to how the healthcare industry created a cartel.

It would be like if me and a few of my rich friends bought up every source of fresh drinkable water in your state and then charged you 10x to have a drink. And when you complained about how unfair this system is, we'd invest $100 million dollars in a propaganda campaign to call you Communists.

The government is the only organization which has the leverage to renegotiate the terms of the deal.

The bottom line is, doctors & executives will have to settle for earning less money so that more people can live. That's what this whole discussion is really about and no one wants to admit it. A bold politician must rise up who will say, point-blank: "You guys will earn less money, for the greater good. Sorry, not sorry." Bernie Sanders is one such politician.

@Leo Gura This whole discussion is about consciousness levels in our country and they are sadly lagging way behind because people don't meditate.  But our culture raises us in the materialist paradigm and thus not to meditate so this is what you get.

So yes if we are fortune enough to get Bernie in the door this election we will be in great shape..but we may have to sit through another term of Trump before that happens.

Leo you're series on conscious politics is amazing I'm in part 4 now and it is really getting juicy.  You guys that dismissed it and laughed it off well you could really learn something from this series.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Inliytened1

[Leo Gura]

@Shiva The US spends double Per Capita.

As one example, insulin in the US costs 10x more than in Canada. Same brand.

[Truthority]

19 hours ago, kieranperez said:

Trying to refrain from vomiting from smelling this smoking pile of bullshit that I gotta grab an alkaseltzer 

The Mighty Kieran Perez comes to save the day

3.8 billion years of evolution led us to this amazing rebuttal

when is your netflix special coming out bro?

don't wanna miss it

[kieranperez]

1 minute ago, Truthority said:

The Mighty Kieran Perez comes to save the day

Damn straight

[Truthority]

23 hours ago, kieranperez said:

Damn straight

No seriously, I actually like your attitude. 

I read your personal story too. 

The force is strong with you

[Dan502]

When I visited the US for a holiday from the UK, I was shocked by the pharmaceutical adverts on TV. It felt really dystopian.

Here, there is none of that advertising. If you have a condition, you visit your national health doctor and he/she writes you a prescription.

Yes it might take a couple of weeks and yes they might get it wrong, yes we have some private health here and yes you still have to pay for the prescription but it still feels more like a community service and less like a giant corporation can't wait to profit from your illness.

[Spiral]

 It does have some problems, but I think Americans should get free healthcare. 

Like quality over quantity, in that waiting times are super long but once you get it, it’s really solid. 

Nurse have really stressful working conditions and often get sick due to it. That combined with a poor pay makes it a unwanted career choice.

Also by raising taxes you incentivise large companies to move and pay taxes somewhere else. 

[Bodigger]

Again we are looking for government to fix us, solve the problem, take care of us.  Oh please government please help me.  I am really getting a good laugh out of this subject.

Work on taking care of ourselves for it is our responsibility.  Then WE can help others.

I Love you all.

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, Bodigger said:

Again we are looking for government to fix us, solve the problem, take care of us.  Oh please government please help me.  I am really getting a good laugh out of this subject.

Work on taking care of ourselves for it is our responsibility.  Then WE can help others.

Just something to consider. . . Do you believe that personal responsibility/empowerment is the only factor at play?  I.e. that opportunity, success and well-being is 100% determined at the personal level? I think that would be a very difficult opinion to hold. It would require an either / or mentality and disregard for all other factors. Such a position is unreasonable. For example, if someone is born to billionaire parents in a loving, supportive environment with an excellent school system they have easier access to opportunity and success than someone born into poverty, an abusive environment and a shitty school system. It’s not to say that someone in a disadvantaged environment cannot succeed, yet it would be much harder than someone with easy access. This is really straightforward and I can’t imagine how one could support a binary model in which personal responsibility/empowerment is the only factor and 100% determinant, while collective responsibility is a non-factor and 0% determinant.

The tendency for a binary thinker would flip to the opposite extreme and say “So you think personal responsibility/empowerment doesn’t matter and everyone would be successful with government assistance”. No. That is not what I’m saying. That is limited to a binary construct: either 100% personal responsibility or 100% government responsibility. To evolve into the next level of consciousness, one would need to let go of a simple binary model and realize some nuance and more complexity. The next level up is that individual consciousness and collective consciousness are BOTH factors. With this higher level view, we can now explore relative degrees that each contribute. For example, perhaps one person says success and well-being is 90% individual factors and 10% collective factors. Someone else may say it is 80% collective factors and 20% individual factors. The most important thing is that once we have transcended an overly simple binary construct, we can now discuss at a deeper level - that involves such things as spectrums and multiple factors. 

The key to transcending a binary system is to closely inspect the 100% point. Under scrutiny, the 100% point will collapse and open the door to a higher conscious level. In this case, personal responsibility/empowerment is the only factor and 100% determines every individual’s opportunity for success and well-being. That statement will collapse under scrutiny. Yet importantly, it does not mean that the opposite view is true (personal responsibility is a nonfactor and 0% relevant to opportunity to success and well-being).

As an aside for those of you into SD: this would be an example of transitioning from a Blue-level binary mode to Orange-level spectrum and multifactorial modes. An emphasis on personal responsibility is an Orange level value that will resist Green level collective values- so that is also at play. Yet the foundation of the reasoning drops down to blue-level binary thinking: that people are either personally responsible or not personally responsible. As well, personal responsibility is 100% determinant. Those are hardcore blue frameworks. It’s common for a person at blue/orange to have resistance to green and drop down to blue binary constructs. Blue binary constructs are much simpler than Orange spectral and multifactorial constructs and would provide a greater sense of grounding.

[Bodigger]

@Serotoninluv I think I understand what you are saying.  What I am saying is we can't help others until we help ourselves.....first.  I see many people who are quick to look outside themselves for many things.  For instance;

Physically   -   Go to the Doctor and they will give me medicine

Mentally   -   Go to the Doctor, maybe, or blame others for my pitty party

Spiritually  -  Go to church, sit there for an hour, and wonder why

I can tell you in my experience that if I don't work at any of these things, or worse, work at them in a negative fashion, things will get worse for me.  Even doing nothing makes things worse form me.  If I work at these things honestly and positively my life gets better and more balanced.

Looking to government, or outside sources for a fix is a recipe for others to take advantage. 

 

[Forestluv]

@Bodigger I agree that personal responsibility and empowerment is an important factor, yet just one factor. Taken to extremes anything becomes unhealthy. 100% independent is unhealthy. 100% dependent is unhealthy. I find it healthiest having a balance between the two - aspects of independent and inter-dependent. I am an individual consciousness and within a collective consciousness. No one is 100% separate and dependent. At the collective level, there is a shared inter-dependence within a community/society. Denying that aspect of being cause a shift toward being a separate self from the whole, which leads to suffering. I’m not saying 100% collective is healthiest. I’m saying a balance between individual and collective is healthiest. Sometimes, people can shift too far toward individual, other times too far toward collective. I try to keep a balance. Right now in the U.S., I think the shift is too far toward individual/tribal and it would be healthy to balance that with more holistic collective consciousness.