I just had a heated argument with my friend in regards to corruption

[apparentlynoself]

When i saw the corruption map, i immediately went to see the corruption rate of turkey, which was 41. Now, my best friend is a devout muslim who adores turkey. I am an atheist but i have not revealed it to him or my family yet because it's considered taboo.

 

When i told him the corruption rate,he immediatwly started defending turkey. He said how everyonr in the world is against islam. He thinks that they made up the statistic.He also says how turkey is extremly evolved. Whenever i say words such as proof, evidence,  he just says how i am too logical and mathematical. 

Another interesting thing is that he believes that the sharia law is similar to democracy. I completely disagree because sharia does not allow free speech.

 

What stage of the spiral is a person who loves turkey, loves islam, loves the ottoman empire, loves war?

I find it difficult to even talk to him about these matters. He even brings science in the equation by saying how there is some mathematical logic in the kuran! It all sounds very primitive.

[Forestluv]

In this regard, it sounds like your friend is stage blue and you are operating at at least orange.

It’s not just your area. I live in the U.S. and mentioning American corruption or shortcomings can trigger defensive blue level nationalism. For example “You are unpatriotic, You aren’t a real American, if you don’t love America, then leave!!”. I’ve found it nearly impossible to have a conversation about what the U.S. does well and what it doesn’t to well with blue-level nationalists. It takes at least Orange, preferably higher. Or someone who does not identify with the country. When I travel out of the states, most people seem open-minded about discussing “pros and cons” of the U.S. because they don’t identify as “I am an American”. Many people with nationalist / religious identity will protect and defend their identity - it is a form of survival.

[apparentlynoself]

@Serotoninluv yeah, i identify myself at orange. But I do have some compassion for him because he lacks the ability to reason. He's too ideological

[Leo Gura]

Classic stage Blue nationalism and ethnocentrism.

You see it on Fox News all day long. That is their whole business model.

[apparentlynoself]

The worst thing is when i start getting into the logical aspect, he literally goes mad. The worst thing is that he has been my friend for over 10 years. But as i develop myself, it becomes harderto communicate with him because i fear that he will bring me down

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, apparentlynoself said:

The worst thing is when i start getting into the logical aspect, he literally goes mad.

That's his defense mechanism for surviving as the self that he's attached to. That is the function of such emotional reactions.

It's like a baby crying when you take away his favorite blanket.

To your friend, losing his national identity is scary and painful so he's in denial about it because it would seriously threaten his entire worldview. He might have to admit that Islam is not the one true faith. This would lead to a profound existential crisis as he loses his grip on reality.

The mind cannot admit that reality is self-constructed. It needs reality to be objectively real!

[apparentlynoself]

@Leo Gura Agreed! I even feel that my friendship with him is starting to get cold. Even though i'm an atheist and i dont like religion, i kinda cant admit it because he would literally not talk to me if he found out. And it would be kinda painful for me because we have been strong friends. 

 

But as i study spiral dynamics, i can see where people are at and where i should be. This means that i must be honest. That's why i told him about the corruption map. But i could clearly see that this literally dangers his survival.

Just to note another interesting thing. He told me how the turkish president erdogan is extremely intelligent and how all the rest of us should just shut up because we(he included himself) will never be as intelligent as him. This utterly shocked me. 

 

He also said how sufis can put a sword through them and still survive. He even guaranteed to me that no non muslim can do that. I laughed

Edited August 3, 2019 by apparentlynoself

[Leo Gura]

28 minutes ago, apparentlynoself said:

Just to note another interesting thing. He told me how the turkish president erdogan is extremely intelligent and how all the rest of us should just shut up because we(he included himself) will never be as intelligent as him. This utterly shocked me. 

Same as how Trumpists defend Trump. Rather than admitting Trump's ignorance they explain it away as actually a higher level of intelligence and strategy.

A stage Blue mind will rationalize away any evidence contradicting its worldview.

Quote

He also said how sufis can put a sword through them and still survive. He even guaranteed to me that no non muslim can do that. I laughed

Stage Blue is prone to mythological thinking. They tend to take myths literally. For example, Noah actually put 2 of every animal on his Ark and got them to fuck successfully.

[apparentlynoself]

I forgot to sat that he said how turkey has a strong military force and that this means that they have a strong economy. That's the main reason why he thinks the corruption rate is fake.

P.S. he does not support the law that saudi arabia passed the other day where women can travel without having to ask their husband. I find that absurd ?

[Leo Gura]

24 minutes ago, apparentlynoself said:

P.S. he does not support the law that saudi arabia passed the other day where women can travel without having to ask their husband. I find that absurd ?

Of course. That's classic stage Blue patriarchy. Woman's role is to make babies and run the kitchen.

[Extreme Z7]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Same as how Trumpists defend Trump. Rather than admitting Trump's ignorance they explain it away as actually a higher level of intelligence and strategy.

A stage Blue mind will rationalize away any evidence contradicting its worldview.

I find it interesting that some clearly Stage Orange people love to strongly defend Trump as well.

This guy calls himself a libertarian and strongly defended Trump's Wall and racist rhetoric.

 

[Leo Gura]

25 minutes ago, Extreme Z7 said:

I find it interesting that some clearly Stage Orange people love to strongly defend Trump as well.

That's totally predictable. Stage Orange is attracted to Trump's phony materialistic success, his phony business acumen, his phony masculinity, his vulgarity, and his giving an F.U. to stage Green.

Libertarian types are attracted to that like flies to shit.

I had a stage Orange coaching client about 3 years ago and he looked up to Trump as his role-model. When I asked him why, he said because Trump has a beautiful wife, the kind of trophy wife he'd like to have. This reveals the level of depth of stage Orange minds.

Stage Orange does not understand the shallowness and self-defeating nature of materialism and capitalism. Stage Orange has made materialism its God. Sports cars, luxury condos, hot women, and millions of dollars are their vision of heaven.

[Extreme Z7]

@Leo Gura  That makes sense.

I've listened to Dick Masterson support Trump during the 2016 Election.

He says Trump "Just tells it as it is" and that he will turn America from a 'Nation that worships God' into a 'Nation that worships Money'. (Despite the fact that Trump's Campaign heavily pandered to Christians and Evangelicals and had Mike Pence as his running mate lol)

Edited August 3, 2019 by Extreme Z7

[Leo Gura]

@Extreme Z7 The ultimate irony is that Trump inherited $400 million from daddy and lost it all in terribly mismanaged business deals.

Trump's wealth is a total con. But stage Orange doesn't care. To stage Orange, the appearance of wealth is as valid as actual wealth and it doesn't matter to stage Orange that his wealth was acquired through white collar crime and various kinds of exploitative schemes. Stage Orange just wants that golden toilet, damn the costs.

To stage Orange, success = truth.

[apparentlynoself]

Another bad part of stage blue politics is that they rely on the afterlife. When i asked my friend why is denmark better than turkey, he just said how this world is pointless and how heaven is the thing everyone should be going towards.

[Apparition of Jack]

Stage blue people are attached so strongly to nationalism / religion / strongmen leaders because they are dealing with red and purple shadows.

Have you ever heard someone say "What's stopping you from raping and killing if you didn't have a God judging you?" That's because they're struggling with urges to rape and kill that they don't know how to deal with without deferring authority to a divine judge. Because their consciousness is not developed enough, they literally cannot fathom a reason to not rape and kill beyond the threat of damnation. 

If they're shown true compassion (not the fake, glass-eyed "compassion" from religious cultists), it will plant seeds of growth within their consciousness, as their experience of reality is suddenly confronted by non-duality in action (being treated kindly by another for no reason other than the other identifies with them and their suffering.) This will, in time, help them let go of their conditioning and move up the spiral, as they feel more confident facing their shadows. 

My advice is just to be kind to your friend, OP. If politics is causing too much drama to discuss, simply put it aside. Your friend is struggling with a lot of devils. If he cannot listen to reasoned arguments, then he will listen to the universal language - love. 

Edited August 4, 2019 by Apparation of Jack

[Aeris]

16 hours ago, apparentlynoself said:

When i saw the corruption map, i immediately went to see the corruption rate of turkey, which was 41. Now, my best friend is a devout muslim who adores turkey. I am an atheist but i have not revealed it to him or my family yet because it's considered taboo.

 

When i told him the corruption rate,he immediatwly started defending turkey. He said how everyonr in the world is against islam. He thinks that they made up the statistic.He also says how turkey is extremly evolved. Whenever i say words such as proof, evidence,  he just says how i am too logical and mathematical. 

Another interesting thing is that he believes that the sharia law is similar to democracy. I completely disagree because sharia does not allow free speech.

 

What stage of the spiral is a person who loves turkey, loves islam, loves the ottoman empire, loves war?

I find it difficult to even talk to him about these matters. He even brings science in the equation by saying how there is some mathematical logic in the kuran! It all sounds very primitive.

Blue/red

From my pov I never talk to such people unless obligated.

Too easy to trigger.

[apparentlynoself]

@Apparation of Jack I agree with you. I'll just try to avoid these conversations with him.

 

@Aeris Yes but the problem is that i live in london but my parents were born in turkey so that means that i occassionally have to visit turkey. And, really, most people are at a stage blue or lower level. My friends in london are orange and higher.

@John Lula hahaha i like beef more than turkey and chicken combined

[apparentlynoself]

@John Lula hahahaha