Objections To Spirituality Mega-Thread

[whoareyou]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Like I said, these are nuanced distinctions.

Of course from the ultimate absolute level nothing can be distinct at all, at which point soul merges into the godhead.

 

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The whole point of the notion of a soul is that it persists between lifetimes as an intermediate structure between the human self and the Godhead.

If soul is just ego, the notion of soul isn't needed at all. The point is in its being prior to ego.

 

How about dropping those mental concepts? What is the point of continuing to talk about the "ultimate absolute level", "absolute", "relative", etc?

And you still didn't get my point or what I meant by "ego" here. You can replace the word "soul" with "human", and it still still be ego - as long as person makes an identity out of it (majority do).

 

[whoareyou]

7 hours ago, Key Elements said:

If it's not:

God (No-self, nothingness, no external environment, no embodiment) -->

Everythingness (You literally become everything.) -->

Godhead (Singularity, Riding the Ox Backwards) -->

To love realm -->

embodiment in mind, body, world, universe...

then, what is it? It will just be more, and more, and more, and more of everything, of absolute infinity within God. In everythingness (infinity), any part of it, the stories do not end. In other words, how long do you want the stories? It's time to find an effective way to point to God after becoming it. That's the journey. Before that, it's pursuing a profound life purpose. Not so easy to do these things, is it? 

The next step is to drop the concepts all together, too much conceptualization is a huge problem on this forum, and the fact that the owner + mods are contributing to it, isn't helping it. 

I been saying this for years, and things don't seem to change.

[Key Elements]

@whoareyou

1 hour ago, whoareyou said:

 drop the concepts all together

It's so easy to give such an universal advice to anyone for years without understanding what the other person is saying. Whatever is written down (including what you and  I wrote down) will only be merely a story and nothing else. Words are only words, not the real thing. Of course, you're going to dismiss it and give such an advice.

I already made a decision to do my life purpose in such a way that will speak of any nuanced things in some kind of story telling way, so that those who are ready to hear it will hear it. If you speak directly to others, they will dismiss it and give you the wrong advice. It's not for everyone to hear.

At least being here in this forum made me more articulate in how to put nuanced things into words. Before, I can't really do that.

[whoareyou]

6 minutes ago, Key Elements said:

@whoareyou

It's so easy to give such an universal advice to anyone for years without understanding what the other person is saying. Whatever is written down (including what you and  I wrote down) will only be merely a story and nothing else. Words are only words, not the real thing. Of course you're going to dismiss it and give such an advice.

I am not dismissing it without understanding.

I understand what you are saying because I have been there. Concepts are helpful in the beginning, but as you go further in this journey, it is an inevitable process that the concepts would have to be dropped, in fact for a lot of people (including myself), it would even happen naturally.

To clarify this further, I take big breaks from the forum, and from time to time do check in out of interest.

Once you have a big enough of awakening, you will understand what I am saying but not just on a mental level that you are doing now.

My suggestion would be to add more sub-categories to this forum, like a beginner's section, intermediate and advanced.

[Key Elements]

@whoareyou I already said what I had to say. A life purpose would be a more appropriate place if you put it together "correctly." Do your own life purpose. Ppl will have to interact and relate to you in practical ways, and only very few or none will understand what you mean when you speak of anything nuanced.

Universal advice is inappropriate for nuanced. It's not one size fits all.

Also, in a life purpose, it could tell others (who are nuanced) how you arrived at the "conclusion." You didn't just say, "oh ok, I'm there. It's an awakening." It didn't happen like this. You had to really discover it.

[whoareyou]

13 minutes ago, Key Elements said:

@whoareyou I already said what I had to say. A life purpose would be a more appropriate place if you put it together "correctly." Do your own life purpose. Ppl will have to interact and relate to you in practical ways, and only very few or none will understand what you mean when you speak of anything nuanced.

Universal advice is inappropriate for nuanced. It's not one size fits all.

You can create many justifications or reasons for continuing to do what you are doing. Just remember the cost and the price.

Consider this hypothetical - if enough people awakened and didn't need any of this, you + many others would be out of business. 

Truth is prior to life purpose.

Yes certainly you can't give universal advice to everybody, hence why I suggested to create  sub-categories of the "enlightenment/meditation" section.

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by whoareyou

[Key Elements]

@whoareyou I already said what I had to say. It has nothing to do with justifications and stopping what you're doing. I think you should have not addressed me because we're talking about two different things.

Tbh, if I just wanted to self-actualize, I wouldn't even be in the forum. There are plenty of other places to do this. I have been watching all of Leo's videos on all the nuanced stuff and understood what he said before posting. It's not like I just wanted to do it because I felt like it.

[Key Elements]

@whoareyou besides, you don't know what I've been through in my life. I can't tell you the whole story in just one post or a few posts. Why should I? It's more appropriate in a life purpose. I'm not the type of person who just gets convinced just because Leo said it or you said it or someone else said it.

[AleksM]

@Leo Gura

Indeed it's paradoxical and hard to understand and communicate what's the difference but I think it's important to not confuse the Soul with God and that it's important to learn the difference.

 I don't have all the answers and I don't know everything but I will try to make some arguments for the soul in this post. Just for fun.

 I agree that at the highest level, there is only one "thing", but I think that by you talking from this point of view and ignoring all notions of individuality, you're spreading ignorance and putting things in the wrong context that will not help evolve consciousness of the viewers to the highest level in the most efficient way.

 I hope that at some point in time, you'll speak more about souls, soul evolution, the 5 kingdoms of nature and how the concept of the soul fits in the grant scheme of things. I think that without that, there is still a lack of discernment and humility in your teachings. 

When we look at the present moment, we can experience it. We can only experience one moment, from many points of view. If there is only one moment, and there is only one moment, then we can realize that everything exists now. Everything is here and now. The past exists now, and the future exists now. When we recall a memory from the past, we experience it now. In the past we experienced the content in the now. In the future we'll experience the content in the now. 

So... there is only one moment and everything exists here and now. BUT, we experience only what is relevant to the individual field of consciousness. 

What we put out, is what we get back. If we smile at the mirror, the mirror will smile back. If we don't smile at the mirror, we can't see a smiling face staring at us, so as long as we're souls there is always an established bondage to relativity.

 I can say in my mind, I am this and that, I am a human living on the planet Earth, and then this becomes my identity, I can use language and symbols to create a character that is part of a story...but if I say I am a coffee table, I will not be able to function as a coffee table because I am not a coffee table... I can go through the motions of everyday life believing I am a coffee table but that has no direct implication on the present moment and does not help me evolve...I can experience the coffee table, because everything is made out of consciousness, made out of one "thing", but as a soul, I have a role to play, I am a certain kind of energy, I can come up with all sorts of stories about what I am, but my ability to recognize patterns as a soul and by ability illuminate everything around me to see it as it actually is as a soul, allows me to understand the relationship between two types of energy and come to the knowledge of what I am in the present direct experience and also what I am in my mind. This is discernment. Distinctions are of the mind but discernment is based on awareness, internalized knowledge and understanding the relationship between things. 

 

Everything is energy, but not everything is the same type of energy, not every energy is part of my energy, my ability to recognize patterns and how these pattern fit together to form a picture allows me to understand my individual field of consciousness, it allows me to understand what I truly am and what resonates with ME. 

The infinite field of consciousness that connects everything together, from which everything is made allows diversity, and the intelligence of the  soul, can recognize different types of energies and intelligence. I can say to myself, there is infinite intelligence, but my ability to recognize patterns and discern them from one another also allows me to discern different types of intelligence while simultaneously being aware of the infinite field of consciousness in which everything is happening.

 I can realize that I am everything and nothing at the same time, but I can also recognize a different individual soul, I can see it for what it actually is, a divine being participating in a divine animation, in the field of consciousness that connects everything, and I can understand and know that this being has the ability to illuminate this infinite field of consciousness that connects both of us. Through God, I can realize that two sentient beings are part of that same unity and are one. By connecting to this unity the process of transfiguration takes place and the emotional, mental and physical bodies start to align and balance with the Soul mission, and the individual starts experiencing bliss, peace and harmony. 

 So while being aware that I am him and that he is me, I am also simultaneously aware that I am me and that he is a different individual, that he is the same and also different. I know that I am, he is, and that we are one. 

 With imagination, intellect and reason I can create an image, an interpretation of what this being is, I can assign labels, and create my identity of what this being represents and by doing that I separate myself from the other being because I'm doing an egoic activity...BUT simultaneously I can also be aware that this being is actually me, this field of consciousness connects us together, there is no boundary between the two... we can come to this via direct consciousness, connecting on this level and seeing that this being is actually me happens via awareness and not the mind. 

This infinite field (God) allows two individual souls to experience compassion, love and connection - that happens as a result of connecting and establishing a relationship between fields, this is not relative, when you become aware, all boundaries collapse and you also become compassion and love. If you're aware and not compassionate and loving, then you're not fully aware.  

If this infinite field of consciousness, God, pure emptiness, nothing, the container for all of reality was able to fall under illusion and become a limited thing, then I as an individual field of consciousness would no longer be able to shift from one reality to another reality because God would be busy connecting to one particular form, and if I am bonded to one particular form then I would be forever bonded to that form if infinite was not accessible eternally. 

This infinite field of consciousness  of God cannot be subject to any state of subordination to illusion because if it did, then it would become conditioned and no longer infinite, this ability of infinite self-generation and self-regeneration would stop. But it doesn't, reality always keeps changing. So God cannot fall under illusion. Only the individual soul can fall under illusion. While the soul can be subject to illusion, God is not. 

Under this principle, of God being perfect and unconditioned, I can free myself from bondage to illusion... this infinite unconditioned field that transcend time and space allows me to shift from one reality to the next. It is only my responsibility as an individual to free myself from the cyclic nature of things, become aware=infinite=God and then shift from bondage to freedom. Forgetfulness and ignorance, allows me to rediscover myself once again as  - God. The more I as an individual free myself from the bondage to what I am not, the more I can come to the realization of what I truly am. 

If God was conditioned, then it would no longer be infinite, it would be finite. You can say that finite is infinite, form is formless, and it is, but the problem is that God must stay in the infinite formless emptiness in order to hold all of the contents of reality and for all of reality to function, so in order for God to rediscover itself once again in all of its majesty and glory it needs to create individual fields of consciousness that can be a subject to illusion, that can identify with something and make distinctions.

 The infinite stays infinite and this feature allows souls to access it. The constant change and infinite self-generation and self-regeneration is what allows souls to free themselves from bondage. 

The individual field of consciousness allows the soul to evolve and embody more knowledge of what it is as God. If there was only one field of consciousness, we could become totally omniscient and access AND  EMBODY the knowledge from all of the beings in the entire universe, but we're not able to do so, because it is no relevant to our individual field. What is just an idea for one being, is a totally internalized realization for another being. There is no point for me to know how to fly, if I don't have wings. How can Truth grasp me, if I have no individual field of consciousness? It can't, because Truth can only grasp me if I am bonded to a relative thing, I can only awaken from the relative and surrender to Truth.

You said that Truth=God... but then you said that God can fall under illusion...So you're basicaly saying that Truth is not illusion free. You are contradicting yourself here, see? God must necessarily be illusion-free and not a subject to illusion. So what is then subject to illusion? The Soul. Truth comes from God....but how can Truth come from something that is subject to illusion? ? 

It is only through my individual field of consciousness that I can experience the defects of deception, an incomplete perception, the defect of falling under illusion, and the defect of inattentiveness. 

The individual field of consciousness allows us to store internalized Self-realizations through different life-times. We can clearly see that some beings are more evolved than others, denying that is ignorance. Even though some beings have less ideas, have read less books and have apparently went through less experiences from which they could learn, even though all that, they seem more evolved, they take more responsibility for their actions and it seems as though they can tap into a source of knowledge that is beyond personal ideas accumulated during the current life time. Why is that? An individual field of consciousness, soul, might be a simple answer to that question. The individual field can also store the light quotient of the being, the light that determines how fast the process of transfiguration will take.

God is already infinite light, so the light quotient of God must be necessarily different from the light quotient of the Soul. If you were infinite light (infinite knowledge, awareness, revelation and lucidity), then you would be able to pass trough walls, access any spaceline/timeline, any electromagnetic spectrum and meet beings in other dimensional realities, and basicly do whatever you want, but you're not able to do that because you are bonded to a form, which is another argument for the soul, the soul can access only a fragment of that, which is relevant for the individual field. The ego has no free will, but look, if you could EMBODY the infinite in a finite form, then this would defeat the purpose of experiencing that particular form, so if you're not able to do that, then maybe there is some purpose behind that...a soul purpose. 

 There are levels in this game and it needs to be respected as such.

The soul is dependent on God, the Soul is our True Self. Only by understanding my True Self, I can embody spiritual bliss. God is what allows me to do that. God is that which allows me to connect the dots.

 

 

[Key Elements]

I just want to address something here. I'm not directing it at anyone, ok? It's just about the topic.

I talked about in my recent post here about Everythingness. What I mean by this is just more, and more, and more, and more, and more, and more, etc., etc., etc., of anything. Yes, I mean any and every realm, embodiment, and phenomenon, including nirvana, heaven realms, hell realms, etc.

[Forestluv]

6 hours ago, whoareyou said:

Concepts are helpful in the beginning, but as you go further in this journey, it is an inevitable process that the concepts would have to be dropped, in fact for a lot of people (including myself), it would even happen naturally.

I think you make a really good point here. Many minds get immerse in concepts and those concepts get transcended. In a sense those concepts are "dropped" and that is a deep spiritual teaching. Once one reaches the shore, drop the boat. If you see buddha on the road, kill him. . . Yet in another context, concepts can still have value as form. There just isn't the same attachment / identification to the concepts anymore.

The other thing this brings up for me is the idea of "arriving". "Now that I have arrived, I can drop the concepts that allowed me to arrive here". This gets tricky, because in a sense it's true - yet in another sense it can be a contraction in a new transcendent area. At the human level, growth is unlimited and concepts serve as maps. The map is not the territory, yet maps are territory and are useful. We may have a map that helps us to get to New York City. Once we have arrived, we can discard the map and be in the NYC territory. Yet this doesn't mean that maps no longer have value. There are maps of New York City that are helpful. As well, NYC is just one city (facet). There are maps to other facets such as Chicago, Prague, Rome, Melbourne etc. that are helpful. 

[Key Elements]

When you're embodied, you still have to live this life no matter what. You can't avoid the story. That's why there's a saying, "live your life (purpose) to the fullest." Sure, in your mind you could drop all concepts as much as you can while you're still here.

________

Even a startup at stage orange have exits. It doesn't continue to talk about whatever the topic is forever in this realm. It moves on.

It's ok to do a "one size fits all" answer on a stage orange life purpose such as a McDonald's or Cheetos. But, this isn't a stage orange topic. It's nuanced. Truth hurts.

__________

In-and-Out Burger (lol)...

A couple once asked me to do an In-and-Out Burger joint with them. "We should invest together," they said to me. Of course, I wasn't interested in fast food. But, yeah, the "one size fits all" type of advice go really well with a burger. It's not nuanced. Onions, lettuce, and tomatoes go well with a beef patty in almost all American burgers. 

 

[whoareyou]

2 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

I think you make a really good point here. Many minds get immerse in concepts and those concepts get transcended. In a sense those concepts are "dropped" and that is a deep spiritual teaching. Once one reaches the shore, drop the boat. If you see buddha on the road, kill him. . . Yet in another context, concepts can still have value as form. There just isn't the same attachment / identification to the concepts anymore.

The other thing this brings up for me is the idea of "arriving". "Now that I have arrived, I can drop the concepts that allowed me to arrive here". This gets tricky, because in a sense it's true - yet in another sense it can be a contraction in a new transcendent area. At the human level, growth is unlimited and concepts serve as maps. The map is not the territory, yet maps are territory and are useful. We may have a map that helps us to get to New York City. Once we have arrived, we can discard the map and be in the NYC territory. Yet this doesn't mean that maps no longer have value. There are maps of New York City that are helpful. As well, NYC is just one city (facet). There are maps to other facets such as Chicago, Prague, Rome, Melbourne etc. that are helpful. 

This was exactly what I meant. Thank you for articulating yourself so well and providing such easy to understand examples

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by whoareyou

[Key Elements]

I have said this before, and it's becoming more and more true (at least for me). However, I want to add something else. If you want to communicate and actually reach out to the most enlightened teachers in the world, or whoever that is, you got to do your life purpose really well, if you want to even get their attention to give you an appropriate advice. And, also, you'll be moving along in your work in this life, wherever you are right now. I'm not sure if this is even an objection.  I don't think it is. But, then, at the same time, the best advice could be coming from you. You could just be looking at something or someone and you got the appropriate pointer, unexpectedly, not what goes well with a beef patty type of answer.

________

McDonald's did very good marketing communication. There's a commercial song I remember from them since childhood: ?Big Mac, McDLT, a Quarter Pounder with some cheese ?? 

It's like everyone remembers something from McDonald's. However, the same can't be said about enlightenment. The advice for enlightenment goes nowhere near stage orange. You cannot have a ringtone on it. Otherwise, it will sound like a jingle, like Santa's reindeer.

So, yeah, calling out someone and telling them to drop all concepts and that you have further to go, no matter what they say to you, in however they say it, sounds like a commercial jingle now, the universal orange answer to enlightenment. You could even elaborate on the jingle as much as you can and make it sound fancy. ? One beef patty became two, and you just add more cheese to it for better taste and called it a Big Mac. Popular answer. Pop culture. For promotion of the product. Awakening to enlightenment is not a promotion of a product type of work when you're talking about it one on one. It's not a sales pitch, like adding fancy words to sell used cars.

________

Not sure if I will answer the same way on my own blog as the other persons if someone else posted what I posted according to the topic. Probably not. Such a common answer. Sales pitch. Nothing useful was exchanged. Nothing learned. Quick fix answer. Sounds like an answer to put down the other person and making themselves look smarter instead of both parties learning something and continuing the work and move on in their journeys.