Objections To Spirituality Mega-Thread

[Apparition of Jack]

@see_on_see The Buddha - one of the most enlightened teachers ever -  only entered parinirvana (final cessation of ego) after dying. There are enlightened beings who nevertheless delay their own full awakening until all other beings in existence have left behind ego.

Having egoic experiences and being enlightened aren't mutually exclusive. Leo is enlightened. His journey is done (yet eternal at the same time.) You too can be enlightened like Leo, if you're dead serious about the work and put all your efforts into it.

Also, don't forget that 99.99% of humanity will not reach enlightenment in this lifetime. There are infinite realm for people to go to after the death of this body, many of which will be far more conducive to awakening than this one, especially if they have been cultivating Love and Truth in this life. This isn't cruel or oppressive, this is just the way reality is set up.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Apparation of Jack

[Pouya]

Why it seems like I'm experiencing through this body but not through any other thing?

[Truthority]

22 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I am not here to argue with devils.

What could be more fun than that?

I mean this whole forum and internet and technology and the world itself is the devil's playground. 

Leo, i thought we already went through this.

 

[MuddyBoots]

Another objection. Nondualist spirituality says that dualities are seen (when we are enlightened) to collapse. If so, then why do many people appear to 'take sides' by saying that Consciousness, Energy, Subjectivity etc are the nature of Absolute Reality? Surely you can equally say that Physical Matter or Objectivity are the basis of Reality. Yes, yes, I know about the Uppercase vs lowercase thing but why are so many "spiritual" people verbally biased to one side of the coin, when the duality is collapsed?  In fact, we could say that the distinction between spirituality and worldliness has also collapsed just as much as the others, so to talk of spirituality at all is a risk of becoming lopsided unless we also develop our worldly side too.  We still need distinctions to be able to live life, beyond the enlightened state, however we should remember that both sides of the coin are equal. Aren't we better using a more neutral term, even if we have to invent one; God is a possibility but has a lot of baggage. We need a word without an opposite if we can find one. Or if we can't, then a multi-word which encapsulates both the yin and yang, their disappearance into the emptiness, and re-appearance as necessary.

Nick.

Edited August 5, 2019 by MuddyBoots

[Joana Ribeiro]

What would happen if everyone in the world had a profound awakening? Would that be utopia? Would ‘reality’ loose its meaning? 

What happens after the most profound awakening? What is the point of living after that? 

When I think I am eternal and in the concept of ‘oneness’ - that makes me sad. I mean, I am the only one... forever. Have I created this simulation to entertain myself? What’s the point? Why did I created all of this? Why just not... be (or not be)? I must have been really bored..  

 

 

[dvdas]

If psychedelics can be trusted for delivering valid truths. Why most of enlightenmened people dont suggest the use of these substances? 

[Mu_]

On 8/2/2019 at 4:58 PM, Leo Gura said:

I want your help.

As I do research for my book, I want to gather a potent collection of objections to spirituality, nonduality, enlightenment, mysticism, the paranormal, etc.

I want legit objections that newbies and skeptics commonly have in this work.

Here are some examples to get you thinking along the right lines:

• How can you trust that a subjective experience reveals Absolute Truth?
• Isn't awakening just a subjective brain phenomenon?
• Could awakening be a self-deception?
• Is it possible that there's something beyond Absolute Truth which you could be missing?
• How is awakening different from solipsism?
• How is awakening different from nihilism?
• How is awakening different from pantheism?
• Why do awakened people still commit evil acts like sexually abusing their students?
• If God is real, why would God hide himself from people? Why isn't God evident to all people in the same way that the sun is?
• If awakening is true, why do all the religions disagree so much?
• You say reality is infinite, but doesn't quantum mechanics say there is a fundamental lower limit to space known as the Planck Length?
• Why is love, beauty, goodness, and intelligence a fundamental property of the universe but hate, ugliness, evil, and stupidity are not?
• If God is so loving why would he allow so much evil in the world like rape, torture, genocide, war, etc?
• How can you trust psychedelics reveal valid truths and aren't just subjective hallucinations?
• If science is as wrong about the fundamental metaphysics of reality as you say, how come it's so successful at manipulating reality?
• Why couldn't there be more than one God?
• If physical reality is imaginary, why can't I imagine a million dollars into my bank account or imagine away a physical illness?
• If what you say is true, how come serious scientists aren't talking about it? Where is your Nobel prize?

I want stuff like that in this thread.

Note: I won't necessarily resolve your objections in this thread. I'm simply trying to gather a solid list of them.

Please formulate your question/objection clearly and concisely.

This may be a hold up of a more experienced or aware practitioner.....  One awakened master says one thing and another says another thing, whos to say who is correct, both are saying they are awake and have students that claim they are awake.....but are saying radically different things.

Or by what authority other then your own can you say that your awake and know what your talking about, and don't give me that you'll have to see it for yourself B.S, because if your honest about the first question, then that kinda answer won't fly, since there are two recognized claimed awake people that don't see the same thing....

Edited August 6, 2019 by Mu_

[loub]

If during a profoundly heightened state of consciousness you see that god is everything is that not limiting god?

if god is that which appears to you in your mystical experience, that would make god limited as he would need you consciousness to make him present.

now, of course the talking point is that god is everything whether one is aware of that or not but how can you trust a mystical experience reveals something true when that experience relies on the absence of ego consciousness?

how can we know god is everything when he never can be experienced alongside ordinary ego-consciousness?

if god is everything how can one experience be closer to truth than another in the most existential sense?

Edited August 6, 2019 by loub
a crucial word was missing

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Mu_ said:

This may be a hold up of a more experienced or aware practitioner.....  One awakened master says one thing and another says another thing, whos to say who is correct, both are saying they are awake and have students that claim they are awake.....but are saying radically different things.

That's right. That does happen. Because people live in different realities.

Quote

Or by what authority other then your own can you say that your awake and know what your talking about, and don't give me that you'll have to see it for yourself B.S, because if your honest about the first question, then that kinda answer won't fly, since there are two recognized claimed awake people that don't see the same thing....

Only by your own authority.

That's the whole magic of reality. There isn't one! So there is no one in the universe to say what is real. So people make up all sorts of shit.

The nature of reality is that there is no external source you can turn to for clear answers because due to nonduality, all sources are actually yourself.

This was the point of my: How Authority Works video.

People have various levels of awakening, and beyond that, their minds can interpret their awakenings in very different ways. People's brains also function differently, producing different realities.

[John Iverson]

Here in the Philippines they gossiping about ghost, , mysterious phenomena, specialy tv networks they will gossip About some topics that is very unknown for example an invicible city so their team will go there to investigate  i thought they want to know what is the truth, but in the end the professionals like psychologist if we talk about exorcism they will say maybe they are having some kind of disorder..for example the professional photographers about a ghost caught in the picture they will say oh! This is something edited or the lighting in that area ?, if i say something to my teacher non physical stuffs they will say oh! "That's not scientific so this is not true" that is a myth.. i hate when they say things they don't know they are saying is actually true! Specially when they are saying the objection " that is not scientific" or the language of professional starts to communicate about what is the truth of their profession, like psychology, etc etc... that is the objection that i want to have an answer from you... It's kinda bulshit when people say something like that.. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by John Iverson

[Mu_]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's right. That does happen. Because people live in different realities.

Only by your own authority.

That's the whole magic of reality. There isn't one! So there is no one in the universe to say what is real. So people make up all sorts of shit.

The nature of reality is that there is no external source you can turn to for clear answers because due to nonduality, all sources are actually yourself.

This was the point of my: How Authority Works video.

People have various levels of awakening, and beyond that, their minds can interpret their awakenings in very different ways. People's brains also function differently, producing different realities.

Just to clarify I was giving you responses you may encounter from doubters.  These were my doubts at some point (and perhaps ones you understand from your own mind and experience) and are still karmic mind patterns that swish around my not yet fully purified mind.  The second part to the doubt is, well if no one knows what they are talking about then its all false and reality is not this nondual stuff.  The mind would then try and revert to the old belief pattern of a I/Body/Material based basis of foundational reality, however it seems this is something the mind can't go back anymore in its pattern seeking habit since on its level of wanting proof for everything, it seems to have checked mated itself realizing that it can't even prove its old foundation and just has nothing to grab onto to fight "Truth".

Edited August 7, 2019 by Mu_

[MuddyBoots]

Not sure if it's too late for new posts here? But a new materialistic objection has occurred to me. The brain has something called Executive Function (EF) which I heard of recently, possibly located in the prefrontal regions of the frontal lobes. This could be what we mean by ego, self, will, the doer. What if spiritual work is really just retraining and rewiring the brain to reduce the dominance of the EF and change how the brain works. In this view, it's all going on inside our brains and tells us nothing about metaphysics and ultimate reality. 

Wikipedia quote below to define EF: 

"Executive functions (collectively referred to as executive function and cognitive control) are a set of cognitive processes that are necessary for the cognitive control of behavior: selecting and successfully monitoring behaviors that facilitate the attainment of chosen goals. Executive functions include basic cognitive processes such as attentional control, cognitive inhibition, inhibitory control, working memory, and cognitive flexibility. "

[ivankiss]

My objection is; 

This whole "I am God / You are God" movement that's popular in modern day spirituality is incredibly distracting and misleading. In my opinion it causes more confusion than it helps anyone navigate their awakening. Which btw, if authentic, is happening rather naturally. If one is meant to get there; they will. No need for spoiling.

I see people losing their minds over this. Becoming completely disconnected from reality and super delusional.

It is inevitable for one's ego who's going through the early stages of awakening to "abuse" information like that and cause madness within and around them. It's just the nature of ego.

So the outcome is more often than not just another Devil claiming to be God. And that's dangerous.

 

Edited October 10, 2019 by ivankiss

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

My objection is; 

This whole "I am God / You are God" movement that's popular in modern day spirituality is incredibly distracting and misleading. In my opinion it causes more confusion than it helps anyone navigate their awakening. Which btw, if authentic, is happening rather naturally. If one is meant to get there; they will. No need for spoiling.

I see people losing their minds over this. Becoming completely disconnect from reality and super delusional.

It is inevitable for one's ego who's going through the early stages of awakening to "abuse" information like that and cause madness within and around them. It's just the nature of ego.

So the outcome is more often than not just another Devil claiming to be God. And that's dangerous.

It's not misleading, it's simply what's true.

Obviously claiming you're God is totally useless without the consciousness of it.

Devils have misused spiritual truths for thousands of years and that's not about to change.

[ivankiss]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not misleading, it's simply what's true.

Obviously claiming you're God is totally useless without the consciousness of it.

Devils have misused spiritual truths for thousands of years and that's not about to change.

It is not true for the one who does not recognize it as their truth.

Claiming you're God is useless in any way, if you ask me. God has no need to claim anything.

It's the Devil that loves making a spectacle out of everything. 

I just see it all as more harmful than helpful. "God" is such a strong word and many view and understand it in various ways. They have their own ideas and beliefs attached to it. Most of which will be shattered, sooner or later. As will the concept of God. It's just too limiting. 

Anyway...This is certainly not my battle. Not planning on becoming a guru. Just sharing an opinion.

 

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, ivankiss said:

I just see it all as more harmful than helpful. "God" is such a strong word and many view and understand it in various ways. They have their own ideas and beliefs attached to it.

I think it depends on basal conscious level. For Orange and below, "You are God" is generally counter-productive. Similar to psychedelics - at Orange and below psychedelics are often counter-productive.  

[ivankiss]

I don't think Buddha was walking around telling everybody how he's God. Neither did Jesus. 

If one was to truly recognize "God" being all loud about it is the last thing they would do.

 

I am no fan of SD either, but I understand what you mean. I guess it all comes down to wearing the shoes that fit.

 

I prefer humble teachings of Love. If any.

 

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, ivankiss said:

It is not true for the one who does not recognize it as their truth.

By that logic we shouldn't teach kids that Africa or kangaroos exist.

It's silly to demand that people visit Africa first-hand before you can talk to them about it.

Quote

Claiming you're God is useless in any way, if you ask me. God has no need to claim anything.

It's not useless. It's very important for people to know that they are God, even if only conceptually.

The greater danger is falling into the belief that there is no God or that God is something other than you.

You do not prevent false belief by staying silent about God and keeping a secret.

How can you expect someone to visit Africa if no one tells them it exists to be visited? In this sense, talking about Africa is very useful. All great things begin with talk.

Quote

It's the Devil that loves making a spectacle out of everything. 

Everything is a spectacle. God is a spectacle. To downplay the grandeur of God is deceptive and misleading.

[Superfluo]

I've watched your post called A Taste Of Infinity on your blog, and there are some things that I don't get.

If this universe is in the world of the form, hence finite, how could a fractal be zoomed to infinity? In theory you can, but in practice the video will end. The process in your computer that does the zooming will end at some point. Even if there was a way to zoom the fractal until the end of the universe (I'm assuming there will be an end, because if something begins my intuition tells me it will end), there will be a time when the zooming will end. And you wrote:

Quote

Just the fact that this fractal exists should already clue you in that consciousness must be infinite.

It's like saying that the number pi is infinite in theory, and can be proved mathematically that it's infinite, but you can't calculate or write all numbers to infinity.

This is a critique from Stage Yellow.

Now you'll say that theory and practice is a duality, so it's illusory. And I get it, but sometimes my mind drags me down to question things that my intuition already proved right.

[mikelyons]

@Leo Gura is it devilry to make a spectacle out of one's false self? (Trump, Bam Margera, Yoko Ono, etc.)

Edited October 11, 2019 by mikelyons
crapitalization