Objections To Spirituality Mega-Thread

[Truthority]

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Because I'd have a hard time finding anyone who would understand or appreciate the depth of the things I want to say

Maybe it's better to let others be the judge of that. 

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

so I just focus on buliding my body of work.

A public dialogue can be part of your work. It will test it's rigidity much more than you care to admit. And expose weaknesses which it seems you are quite afraid of. It doesn't have to be often but this is just as important as any retreat or trip.

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The stuff I want to say will only be understood by one in a million people.

Well if you do the math, that's thousands of people globablly. That's enough to fill a theatre. Again, not sure why you are so preoccupied with this. You are worried that not enough people will listen to you? But that could also be an invitation for you to go deeper so you connect with people on a level where it is no longer just about you but about something greater than that. And if it backfires, you will learn from it.
 

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Who is gonna interview me?

People who are interested in what you have to say. Or even people who disagree with you. I'm sure many fascinating conversations could be had with people from all levels and backgrounds. This is what we need more of. Man up.
 

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Who knows which questions to ask?

Let them ask whatever they want. Or take it as a challenge to show people what you got and give them a chance. Or be curious and playful so you learn from others more. A little humility wouldn't hurt.
 

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

How many hours would the interview need to be to convey the things I want conveyed?

Long talks are getting pretty popular these days. Your videos are quite long too so this is not a problem for you. There are lectures on youtube that are 6-7 hours long. And podcasts can go up to 3-4 hours. Or make it a live event. The gatekeepers are gone. You can do a lot with the different formats available. 
 

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It would largely be a waste of my time.

Your life is not about you. Wasn't that the whole message of Conversations With God? Forget about yourself. Maybe it's time to step out of the shadows. I think it will push you more than anything else. You said it yourself, doing these videos every week year after year is kind of starting to get stale. Time for a new challenge?

 

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Rather than waiting for the right person to ask me things, I just say the right things straight to your face and cut out the middle man.

Videos on youtube are not straight to your face. They are just videos on the internet. There's a huge difference there. And you can still do both. But straight to your face is getting out there and leaving the house. Again, you can do both.

Don't underestimate the value of gaining input and inspiration from people who are smarter than you and more experienced. You are not the only one at this and if you think you are, you are deluding yourself. 

Surround yourself with the best of the best. 

Otherwise you are just preaching to the choir and probably a bunch of confused teenagers who need to get laid. 

*****

That said, you are still young so taking the time to develop yourself quietly and focusing on your work is not entirely unreasonable. And sharing some advice and helping your followers is a nice little public service on your part for newbies. 

I just hope you sort out your fears regarding exposing yourself because that's what it sounds like to me more than what you say.


And after all, we are just each other's alter egos right?
 

[assx95]

@d0ornokey Hey! I cherish my loved ones, and It is hard to imagine or consider why I would leave them be, all alone. Can't we spend time together? 
But yeah, from a certain perspective, the impermanence of it all makes me question all this. But what's the point anyway? 

[XYZ]

@Leo Gura

I'm playing devil's advocate and demonstrating common arguments against spirituality per the point of this thread, this is not a personal attack on you or anyone.

@Shadowraix

@Aakash

Understand what you mean, at least conceptually. But this issue is the biggest reason why people would object to there being absolute love and goodness, and why I might doubt it myself. Negate the survival of living beings, even one's own survival, that's something you can come to terms with. So too are the more common physical sufferings of life. But stuff I've seen on 4chan and liveleak showing the most painful suffering humans and animals experience, with the sound of their yelps and screams forcing me to uncomfortably empathize with them. When you're faced with that, even as an observer, it can make you doubt in any higher realities, your head falls out of the clouds and you're reminded that we're just biological animals living out a brutal existence with no purpose. That could be us, getting our heads cut off by terrorists. Could one still believe in divine goodness and love while being brutally murdered?

 

 

[Aakash]

@XYZ unfortunately yes they can. Once a persons needs are completely met, which is what enlightenment is about. 

Then what is there to do besides love the people that are beheading you. You don’t fear death because your eternal, but only when you realise. 

[Truth Addict]

Is spirituality only true when one thinks of it, just like materialism?

[Aeris]

2 hours ago, Truthority said:

Maybe it's better to let others be the judge of that. 

A public dialogue can be part of your work. It will test it's rigidity much more than you care to admit. And expose weaknesses which it seems you are quite afraid of. It doesn't have to be often but this is just as important as any retreat or trip.

Well if you do the math, that's thousands of people globablly. That's enough to fill a theatre. Again, not sure why you are so preoccupied with this. You are worried that not enough people will listen to you? But that could also be an invitation for you to go deeper so you connect with people on a level where it is no longer just about you but about something greater than that. And if it backfires, you will learn from it.
 

People who are interested in what you have to say. Or even people who disagree with you. I'm sure many fascinating conversations could be had with people from all levels and backgrounds. This is what we need more of. Man up.
 

Let them ask whatever they want. Or take it as a challenge to show people what you got and give them a chance. Or be curious and playful so you learn from others more. A little humility wouldn't hurt.
 

Long talks are getting pretty popular these days. Your videos are quite long too so this is not a problem for you. There are lectures on youtube that are 6-7 hours long. And podcasts can go up to 3-4 hours. Or make it a live event. The gatekeepers are gone. You can do a lot with the different formats available. 
 

Your life is not about you. Wasn't that the whole message of Conversations With God? Forget about yourself. Maybe it's time to step out of the shadows. I think it will push you more than anything else. You said it yourself, doing these videos every week year after year is kind of starting to get stale. Time for a new challenge?

 

Videos on youtube are not straight to your face. They are just videos on the internet. There's a huge difference there. And you can still do both. But straight to your face is getting out there and leaving the house. Again, you can do both.

Don't underestimate the value of gaining input and inspiration from people who are smarter than you and more experienced. You are not the only one at this and if you think you are, you are deluding yourself. 

Surround yourself with the best of the best. 

Otherwise you are just preaching to the choir and probably a bunch of confused teenagers who need to get laid. 

*****

That said, you are still young so taking the time to develop yourself quietly and focusing on your work is not entirely unreasonable. And sharing some advice and helping your followers is a nice little public service on your part for newbies. 

I just hope you sort out your fears regarding exposing yourself because that's what it sounds like to me more than what you say.


And after all, we are just each other's alter egos right?
 

This here.

+ Go Joe rogan

[XYZ]

@Key Elements

At least how I see it now, the greatest way to contribute to love is by eliminating suffering. This seems to be the case on so many levels. Doesn't matter if suffering is bad or good or neither, the physical hardships of existence get in the way of humans beings and societies evolving beyond primitive animals focuses on maintaining survival. Not that people are too stupid to understand spirituality and experience Love, but too busy wage slaving, being addicted to things, carrying out the daily chores of existence, and trying not to kill and be killed by each other.

I have a sense that it all comes full circle. Another objection I have to spirituality is I ask why not can one be both selfish and highly conscious? Can one not be conscious of one's own devilry, and still be a devil? To be alive is to be selfish after all, and no one is immune to survival unless they literally physically die.

It occurred to me that if I lived fully selfishly, no holds barred, with no creative limitations, I would basically heal the entire planet in the pursuit of my own devilry. Because it is all interconnected, reducing others' suffering reduces my own, not just in some airy fairy roundabout way, but literally every day.

@Aakash

Survival needs are recurring though. Still have to eat, drink, shit, piss, brush teeth, breathe oxygen, avoid getting killed or maimed by machines and people.

Even without fear of death, there are infinite number of prolonged extremely painful processes of getting killed. Like imagine the process of being eaten alive by coyotes. It's the existence of this kind of extreme physical suffering that makes people doubt in absolute goodness.

[Aakash]

@XYZ yes which is why all it comes down to minimising everything. As a conscious being you understand dualities exist in any ratio besides 100:0 or 0:100. This is an impossibility. 

But when your transcended the fact you keep your body healthy is not because you need it to survive. You also realise it is also part of the whole of reality. Therefore you take care of it or use it in a productive way to serve. This brings you to absolute selflessness for the first time and complete ego death. 

You see awareness isn’t located in the body. But you can only identify with awareness after you have realised what’s it is. (Not your personal awareness) but the moment your personal awarensss merges or is seen as an illusion. And all that resides is pure awareness/ consciousness that exists everywhere. Once you are this, then there is no need for you to actually 

a) participate in reality ever again (no self) 

b) participate in the changing of reality itself. 

The option is yours, surrender self for autonomy. 

Otherwise you are surrendering self for option C 

c) serving world 

or take option D 

d) don’t completely eradicate ego and be present at the same time. 

Either way all are “enlightenment” 

in these states, they will all react differently to any given situation. Therefore we can’t even talk about enlightened beings because we now need a metalanguage to apply to their specific needs. So from a human vantage point (you) there’s no point questioning what an enlightened being would do . 

Still it is helpful ... so it’s as I’ve said MAJORITY of enlightened beings tend to do A OR B, demonise D or they themselves are unaware they are D. In all these cases apart from D, technically survival has been taken care of because it’s no longer identified with. But it’s not quite as realistically taken care of as people will presume about enlightened people. 

The ideal in my opinion is option C and that is what I described in the first place 

[Aeris]

50 minutes ago, XYZ said:

@Key Elements

At least how I see it now, the greatest way to contribute to love is by eliminating suffering. This seems to be the case on so many levels. Doesn't matter if suffering is bad or good or neither, the physical hardships of existence get in the way of humans beings and societies evolving beyond primitive animals focuses on maintaining survival. Not that people are too stupid to understand spirituality and experience Love, but too busy wage slaving, being addicted to things, carrying out the daily chores of existence, and trying not to kill and be killed by each other.

I have a sense that it all comes full circle. Another objection I have to spirituality is I ask why not can one be both selfish and highly conscious? Can one not be conscious of one's own devilry, and still be a devil? To be alive is to be selfish after all, and no one is immune to survival unless they literally physically die.

It occurred to me that if I lived fully selfishly, no holds barred, with no creative limitations, I would basically heal the entire planet in the pursuit of my own devilry. Because it is all interconnected, reducing others' suffering reduces my own, not just in some airy fairy roundabout way, but literally every day.

@Aakash

Survival needs are recurring though. Still have to eat, drink, shit, piss, brush teeth, breathe oxygen, avoid getting killed or maimed by machines and people.

Even without fear of death, there are infinite number of prolonged extremely painful processes of getting killed. Like imagine the process of being eaten alive by coyotes. It's the existence of this kind of extreme physical suffering that makes people doubt in absolute goodness.

Yes no one here could know if Hitler was a coral playing on red. Or just a crazy psycho.

But he did a lot of art. And lazy life talking in bar.

His life look staged to me.

Usa and russia was just more evil

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, ajasatya said:

You need to be extra careful if that's the way you're going to place your stones. There is a huge difference between relying on individual subjectivity and the struggle to build something based on consensual subjectivity. I don't intend to discuss this point here. I'm just saying that arguing that the scientific method arises from subjectivity won't quite cut it.

Keep in mind that the most refined scientists do not confuse science with Truth. So if you say that to them as an attempt to wake them up to the spiritual dimension it won't even scratch their surface.

You can't avoid the truth of the matter.

What the scientist needs to realize is that all science is mediated through subjective experience and that it could not be otherwise. To skip over this point is the crux of problem. This is a giant epistemic oversight on their part.

The subjectivity of science is the elephant in the room that no scientist wants to acknowledge.

The very belief that science is objective is itself a subjective belief! Science is objective because one imagines it to be so.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, XYZ said:

I'm playing devil's advocate

I asked that you don't play devil's advocate in this thread but ground your objections in genuine objections & confusions you personally have.

I am not here to argue with devils.

[Key Elements]

@XYZ all your questions could be answered if you start taking steps on your life purpose. Remember, it's your choice to incorporate non-duality or not. I see nothing wrong with survival. Some ppl in this world are born in the wrong place at the wrong time. They have very little to no advantage in life. So, they grow up into criminals and terrorists because of misguidance. They are so dependent on their rigid mindset--stuck in their own world. However, a horrible background isn't an excuse for the crime. No one accepts that. Life is testing you all the time. At least you're an adult and you're here. You have a choice. You don't have to agree with everything, but you do have tools to do further research on how to improve your life and go beyond that. Spiral Dynamics and Maslow's are great tools to use as a guidance for your life purpose.

Hey, let's stick to the original topic. 

[Angelite]

3 hours ago, Aakash said:

@XYZ unfortunately yes they can. Once a persons needs are completely met, which is what enlightenment is about. 

Then what is there to do besides love the people that are beheading you. You don’t fear death because your eternal, but only when you realise. 

Trying to justify killing & murder? 

You're messed up. 

From the Absolute perspective, those who are beheaded, will get back what they've lose, to infinity. Those who beheaded others, will get back their karma. Magnified to infinity without an end. Both with magnified sensory. 

Infinite rewards & infinite sufferings. 

[Aakash]

@Angelite I’ve done what I needed to do so; I’ll reply to you like this. 

Beheading and any form of violence is wrong, anyone who is conscious can see its not okay to harm another person. But we need to find ways to help them and the systemic route issues that are occurring daily, causing the same events to occur, over and over again. As the main problem isn’t being addressed. 

Imagine a flower, if someone horrible wanted to kill it with a pair of scissors. Cutting the individual leaves would not do it instantly. This is how we’re currently addressing systemic problems with each individual debate about it addressing the leaves. The real way to kill the plant is to separate the leafs from the roots by cutting the stem. This is one way of dealing damage, however, what’s to say the plant cells in the stem will regenerate and keep the plant still “alive” to grow back later. The real way to kill the plant is to upheave it from the roots. Pull the whole thing out and discard it. That’s the ideal way. 

Thats how we should tackle systemic root issues.  Which requires consciousness , love, truth and understanding. 

[Angelite]

@Aakash You know what the root of everything is?

Answer this & i'll give mine. Leo should answer this too. My first Question. 

Edited August 4, 2019 by Angelite

[Aakash]

@Angelite devilry , the consistent reoccurrence across all problems. 

Devilry , fear, judgment is the opposite of god, love ,understanding and truth. 

When a person shows love, do you have a problem ? No, 

when a person isn’t showing love, do you have a problem ? Yes 

but what is love by your own defined terms? The million dollar question. Watch Leo’s video - love for the advanced 

it’s what ever the person tries to defend with their devilry. 

So if love = devilry and devilry = hate and judgement. 

How do we solve this ? 

We expand the “love” the devil has a capacity for to include more people. This will have a snow ball effect and when peoples circle of concern expands to a universal 

love = all = truth = understanding= No unconscious devilry 

solving the root issue. 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by Aakash

[Shadowraix]

4 hours ago, XYZ said:

@Leo Gura

I'm playing devil's advocate and demonstrating common arguments against spirituality per the point of this thread, this is not a personal attack on you or anyone.

@Shadowraix

@Aakash

Understand what you mean, at least conceptually. But this issue is the biggest reason why people would object to there being absolute love and goodness, and why I might doubt it myself. Negate the survival of living beings, even one's own survival, that's something you can come to terms with. So too are the more common physical sufferings of life. But stuff I've seen on 4chan and liveleak showing the most painful suffering humans and animals experience, with the sound of their yelps and screams forcing me to uncomfortably empathize with them. When you're faced with that, even as an observer, it can make you doubt in any higher realities, your head falls out of the clouds and you're reminded that we're just biological animals living out a brutal existence with no purpose. That could be us, getting our heads cut off by terrorists. Could one still believe in divine goodness and love while being brutally murdered?

 

 

What do you think Jesus did while being crucified? 

Being able to love your killers is a big sign of high consciousness. 

[Angelite]

1 hour ago, Aakash said:

@Angelite devilry , the consistent reoccurrence across all problems. 

Devilry , fear, judgment is the opposite of god, love ,understanding and truth. 

When a person shows love, do you have a problem ? No, 

when a person isn’t showing love, do you have a problem ? Yes 

but what is love by your own defined terms? The million dollar question. Watch Leo’s video - love for the advanced 

it’s what ever the person tries to defend with their devilry. 

So if love = devilry and devilry = hate and judgement. 

How do we solve this ? 

We expand the “love” the devil has a capacity for to include more people. This will have a snow ball effect and when peoples circle of concern expands to a universal 

love = all = truth = understanding= No unconscious devilry 

solving the root issue. 

 

 

Nah. It's way deeper than that.. 

I think I need some time for it to make sense to you.

 

Edit: I said the roots of Everything

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Angelite

[abrakamowse]

@Angelite  I think the root of everything is the idea of a separated ego. But... Not sure if there's something deeper to contemplate.

 

[How to be wise]

If the self is an illusion, then who is doing the self inquiry to realise that the self is an illusion?

If you deny the self, then exactly what will experience the truth that the self isn’t real?

Both of these objections comes from somebody who was criticising the idea that the self is an illusion, which is extremely popular in spirituality.