Objections To Spirituality Mega-Thread

[Forestluv]

@Key Elements I didn’t mean to suggest it could have been induced by methods. Thank you for sharing those experiences with us.

@SunnyNewDay ♥️ 

[abrakamowse]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The raw data of perception doesn't change, it just gets recontextualized, reinterpreted.

 

Got you, thanks!

[Key Elements]

2 hours ago, cetus56 said:

@Key Elements This gave me a premonition about the future. Our daughter is expecting her first child and there there will be clues surrounding the birth.

Yes, look for profound clues. But, you know what, the clues that were presented to me were the least expected. I wasn't looking.

[Key Elements]

@Keyhole @Serotoninluv ✌️❤️✌️??

 

[Enlightenment]

1) How can you ever know what pure consciousness is if consciousness is always of something

2) How can we trust the feeling of truth to be representative of what is the reality if any experience can feel incredibly true and it doesn't determine that it is the actual truth? How can a feeling be higher than reason and logic?

3) How is spirituality not a denial of death and an immortality project for people that fear death and cope that way?

4) How is unconsciousness imaginary without solipsism?

5) Why there is so much disagreement among spiritual people?

6) If 5-MeO is imaginary and within a dream, how it can get you out of the dream?

7) What about people that have done high doses of 5-MeO and don't consider it to be the Ultimate Truth, but just an experience?

Here is a good podcast where they talk about some objections to the Truth https://deconstructingyourself.com/podcast/dy-003-masters-oblivion-guest-kenneth-folk

[XYZ]

It's easy to say that God is absolute goodness and everything is love when you're meditating or doped out on drugs. Go watch people getting tortured and beheaded, eaten alive by bears, crushed by machinery, blown up by IEDs, shot in the face, drowning and getting burned to death. Can you still say that, and claim we're just not conscious enough to see how such seemingly pointless horrific suffering is actually part of a grand design to maximize love and goodness?

[Richard Alpert]

Am i not my body?

Do i live consciously in some form or formless form after death?

Did i exist in some form of awareness/consciousness before this life?

Am i something else than human?

Does consciousness exist separate from the brain? Or does brain produce consciousness?

 

[Surfingthewave]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The problem with meeting people in person is that it's a lot of hassle and my reach becomes very small.

@Leo Gura This is just an observation and I realise you are writing a book but with your knowledge/experience you could write a thousand books, without questions from your audience. It appears you are questioning yourself (as these questions you are searching for are in fact coming from you) I'm curious why is that? Are you going through self doubt about your work? 

Also your mentioning of meeting people might be "hassle". Again I'm curious, working within parameters online is very safe to a point, why would you prefer to use this context rather than a smaller one face to face. Nothing can beat the real thing. 

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by Surfingthewave

[Shadowraix]

47 minutes ago, XYZ said:

It's easy to say that God is absolute goodness and everything is love when you're meditating or doped out on drugs. Go watch people getting tortured and beheaded, eaten alive by bears, crushed by machinery, blown up by IEDs, shot in the face, drowning and getting burned to death. Can you still say that, and claim we're just not conscious enough to see how such seemingly pointless horrific suffering is actually part of a grand design to maximize love and goodness?

Such statements are hinging on our survival mechanisms. It's a very radical thing to realize any form of truth that goes beyond survival. 

Our ideas of goodness and love are especially crafted to cater to our survival. Divine goodness and love expands beyond that. 

[Aeris]

6 hours ago, cetus56 said:

@Key Elements For whatever it's worth I was into spirituality in my mid to late 20's then got married had two children and spirituality took a back seat to family life. Then the wife passed suddenly at the age of 40. That's one reason I'm here today. Maybe in a way I'm reaching out in hopes of reconnecting with her through spirituality. She can no longer be here. That is done.  But maybe I could meet her not in physical terms but on her terms. It's said that the self is an illusion. But I know somehow we shall meet again.

Thanks..

I cry at your post

[noselfnofun]

Not sure if someone has mentioned this but a common one I hear is if we all experience the infinite love of god when we die why don't we all just die now? 

 

I don't agree with the question btw just something I hear people say a lot 

[Leo Gura]

@XYZ Watch your disrespectful attitude.

[Aakash]

@XYZ my consciousness can look at a picture of a nuclear hydrogen bomb killing millions of people and genuinely fall in love with it. Once you realise how beautiful the event actually is. It actually makes you want to see it for yourself. At this point humans are no difference to consciousness and life itself is just playing out for the purpose of being.  still not sure how I would react in the real situation. thIs is just a picture, the scale is a lot different. But you could probably find a godly being who can fall in love from watching a nuclear bomb go off. If I can look at a picture of it and fall in love. They would even be inside it and love it. Think about it, a nuclear bomb is like a piece of art. 

A befitting love for the devil no ?. 

Edited August 4, 2019 by Aakash

[Aakash]

Unconditional love is like a 2d layer of love expanding acrosss the plane of reality currently in my awareness. It comes up when you decide to realise the purpose of anything is only to be itself. Taking out all the assumptions about it. 

The purpose of a nuclear bomb is to be a nuclear bomb. The purpose of it is not to kill millions of people 

the purpose of the human is to be a human (by its own manmade definition of itself ) and use the nuclear bomb 

the purpose of this whole event put together is to play out a possibility. There is actually no inherent reason or purpose behind it. The humans job is to make purpose and reasoning to live a good life. So this is also in their jurisdiction imo to do so. 

The point of enlightenment is to see it from god’s perspective and not your own. That ownership as god and do what ever you want as god. 

Simialrly the purpose of a sun is not to sustain life on planet Earth. The purpose of a sun is to be a sun. If you contemplate things are for what they are. And don’t attached assumed presumptions about purpose. Then there you will find the purpose for creating this whole design. 

At this point you’ll wonder what is my own life purpose . Like if everything is just happening for the sake of its own being. And “my human” has lost all its functionality. It would be idea to become a monk. But this again, is a purpose. The ideal situation is to sit and do nothing until your being passed away. But then you’ll realise while identifying with nothing. You are essentially identifying with god. Meaning the last question will always be what is the point of god. If I look around there’s nothing I want, there’s nothing I would like to change. There’s no purpose I want to place on anything. However, I am still here in my finite lifetime. Therefore the purpose would be god. And what’s god’s purpose to “be” itself. So you act like god because you are god. And this becomes subjective to all again. But what is the purpose of god? What is the purpose of its being... why create any of this at all. Well that’s the million dollar question. 

which then leads back to being, which then leads back to how did you create this whole thing to be your own "being itself" and to which i don't have a indicative answer actually. its not that eternity is static, its constantly changing. So therefore there must be an underlying design. This is confirmed. But what are the parameters on which it is all based? 

absolute imperminance, absolute change, absolute eternity, absolute love, absolute self-deception, absolute distinctions, absolute oneness, absolute diversity, absolute being, 

"without opposite it would be" 

But although there maybe a few absolutes, it doesn't derive the "what being god is" 

what is the reason for god to create all these "terms" 

what does god want from itself? why did it make itself in form. why not stay formless? why do all this? 

The answer is if you take duality and seperate it from non-duality (god), then what is the relationship? 

its that god has no reason to do anything which will have any value to itself because it is absolutely infinite and all powerfull and can imagine anything. So the purpose of god is to share its unconditional love with all of it's dual form AND non-dual version. [god is even seperate from a need to be non-dual and one-ness, it is basically formless itself], the purpose of it, is to love itself without condition. So "what being god is" is love its own self. The purpose of life is to love itself. But how would it do this? how would it create this "formless/form" "non-dual/ dual" love, it would have to create a design to build it. Because love itself is god's being. However, it is "form/formless" within life itself. So the purpose of it all was to create form through its own love. To share it with us. Thus the reason that in this design, love conquers all. 

love is primary and all else is secondary in comparison. the design itself was secondary to want to love itself unconditionally. 

the antithesis of the dark knight of the soul, in which everything is pointless. Well its true the creation itself is pointless. But being itself is its own inherent value and grounding in safety. 

The end  

 

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by Aakash

[MuddyBoots]

Hi Leo, all

My problem is essentially, how do we (newbies) know our spirituality leads to absolute truth, rather than just another relative version of the truth? I have tried a number of paths: Christian, TM, Zen, Theravada. They all have their own group-think, practices, ideas and experiences - this forum is no exception. The newcomer listens to Leo's talks, reads the forum and is effectively indoctrinated into this philosophy (otherwise they leave) and this learning conditions the experiences they have. Most people are more conformist than they like to admit, we have a need to 'fit in'. It's no good saying, 'just try it for a few months, then you will understand': they all say that. After a few months my mind might be conditioned. 

Extract from Wikipedia article on Mysticism: 

"In contrast, for the past decades most scholars have favored a constructionist approach, which states that mystical experiences are fully constructed by the ideas, symbols and practices that mystics are familiar with.[7] Critics of the term "religious experience" note that the notion of "religious experience" or "mystical experience" as marking insight into religious truth is a modern development,[136] and contemporary researchers of mysticism note that mystical experiences are shaped by the concepts "which the mystic brings to, and which shape, his experience".[137] What is being experienced is being determined by the expectations and the conceptual background of the mystic.[138]" 

Blessings, Nick. 

[Soulbass]

why do some enlightened people tells us not to "seek" and that you're already enlightened?

and why not just "live your life" : the more you're aware of spirituality, the more "escaping your life" you are (being cartesian = spiritually attuned).

it's a question i had for 2+ years, still unsolved (why, because i follow a guy who's 30+ years into the business of teaching, natural born psychic, totally cool human-being and what he says is total opposite to what most spiritual-guys says. that's a good source imo, but sill, even tho he helps a lot on many topics, i'm still missing a point. dunno if that's related : i've heard of "advaita trap" but i don't understand what it is).

to me it seems the difference between solipsism & awakening is love (seeing others as mirrors/yourself, oneness).
we're in the same boat.
everything we can do to help is : nothing.
any "try" to do so, is taking power.

also the fact that we're alone AND not alone, the experience of duality is very important, it's honoring god's wish to kill and love, otherwise we're just escaping the game. tho, another folk i follow says we're in a blood bath right now, because all of the technology & modern world is made of suffering (people in china working in mines to build smartphones, basic stuff as well, just to tell 1 example). my sources aren't english, unfortunately.

sorry if that's not just 1 question, and still over-load of words & letters,
i hope it helps, or not!

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by Soulbass

[assx95]

If i am to renounce all materialism , am i not denying the major expressions of life? What is the point in doing that? 

[d0ornokey]

@assx95 I think renouncing it is done out of wisdom and consciousness, rather than from a belief system. You are operating from an understanding that clearly sees the limits and problems of materialism instead of denying it and just holding it from a belief. In a relative sense from your perspective, it is very real so denying it will do you no good. Especially if it makes you not happy

This is my exp

[Key Elements]

@XYZ ok, so what are you going to do about it to contribute to resolving such issues? Have you started working on your life purpose? The deeper you go on your life purpose, the more you'll realize that you could use your life purpose to have an impact. Life purpose can be powerful after non-duality/enlightenment since it'll be aligned with your life and you could share it along with your contributions.

But, I'm just saying. You could either start to do something about it or not. It doesn't matter if you incorporate non-duality/enlightenment or not. If you do incorporate (non-duality/enlightenment), I would recommend the person be careful and tactful of how it's done. Many will misunderstand and think it's just an escape. It's not. If you have experienced an awakening, one of the first things you'll probably notice is that life is not about suffering. It's about love. So, how will you contribute to that?

[ajasatya]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Vignesh Pagadala Name one thing which isn't highly grounded in subjectivity.

You need to be extra careful if that's the way you're going to place your stones. There is a huge difference between relying on individual subjectivity and the struggle to build something based on consensual subjectivity. I don't intend to discuss this point here. I'm just saying that arguing that the scientific method arises from subjectivity won't quite cut it.

Keep in mind that the most refined scientists do not confuse science with Truth. So if you say that to them as an attempt to wake them up to the spiritual dimension it won't even scratch their surface.