Objections To Spirituality Mega-Thread

[Leo Gura]

34 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

But to say that Absolute Love is the REASON for which Reality IS? My instinct is to say "You don't KNOW that!"

Could it not be the case, rather, that everything is for the sake of being itself, (ultimately without reason) and that Love is the expression/manifestation of this reason-less-ness?

You could wave away this question by merely saying that the words "Reality" and "Love" are interchangeable, but then why stress that everything is for the sake of Love?

You need to have an awakening to what Love is.

It cannot be told to you in words.

I understand your skepticism, but all happenings truly are an expression of Love. It's too epic to believe. Even when you awaken to it you will be too amazed to accept it. It's too good to be true. Yet it is Truth itself.

Psychedelics help. Take some DPT and ask it to show what is Love. Brace yourself for a mindfucking of unspeakable proportions.

The only thing capable of understanding the full extent of God's Love is God itself. A human is too tiny to fathom it. Only God understands. Fortunately, you are it!

Your awakening is not complete until you understand why you created it all. It will melt your heart with pure Goodness. It is a Goodness without an opposite.

[SeanD]

How can I possibly not be this body. I get that Neti Neti shows that I am not located in the feet. But I still feel my feet, and I don't feel yours.

[Identity]

What happends to the body when you awaken? Supposedly, it feels like you transend it and go outside space-time, but when you come back, what do others observe? Ive had these Samadhi type experiences when others are around, they state that I stopped breathing for a while. Is it not dangerous? Also if there is no “objective reality” out there, how does it keep going if youre not there?

how come you dont come totaly omniscient, in the sense of knowing every detail, when you realize you are god? What is the connection between god realisation and still being human, is this a gliding schale where in the end you die physicaly?

If all is one, how come if you awaken, I dont?

ill be back with more, enough confusion to go around ?

Edited August 3, 2019 by Identity

[Apparition of Jack]

If spirituality is true, why do so many of the teachings seem to contradict each other? Obvious example: Buddhism teaching no-self / non-self (anatta) vs. Hinduism teaching Cosmic Self (Brahman)

[Identity]

19 minutes ago, SeanD said:

How can I possibly not be this body. I get that Neti Neti shows that I am not located in the feet. But I still feel my feet, and I don't feel yours.

Building on this; whats the connection between limitation and oneness. How come you have a perspective that is limited, even when you awaken?

[Aaron p]

A good one is "how are we all god?"

[Identity]

Why would you care about all this as a regular human being, just trying to libe a nice life? Sure, truth for truths sake sounds nice, but it sounds so complicated, there is all this suffering involved, so alianating and lonely. What is the motivation, what is the vision?

[Identity]

So wait a minute, do I exist or not?

??????

[Identity]

If it is all about letting go and being in the moment, how come such enormous discipline is required?

Why would god make it so hard for itself to know itself? 

[FocusOnTruth]

Regarding psychedelics, there's a lot of controversy around them to say the least, with critiques ranging from various generally well-respected gurus dismissing them as experiences or inducing states that may seem similar to but which ultimately aren't enlightenment to even critiques from experienced psychedelic users, many of whom are in stabilized nondual states, who also dismiss them in favor of a 'sober path'.

The obvious response is to go by direct experience rather than accepting any authority, whether they're enlightened or not. However, this advice alone may not make everything so clear cut to seekers. After all, there are people who contemplate, do various forms of consciousness work, yet they still draw different conclusions from others after having taken psychedelics. That being said, I think it would be great for you to discuss the various pitfalls in using psychedelics and explore why people arrive at different conclusions, looking at the epistemic nuances and practical factors. 

On a similar note, it'd be nice to see some discussion on the wide-ranging social implications of mystical experience and higher states becoming more normalized. While a more highly conscious and awake population doesn't suffer as much from certain issues, new complications arise with awakening and on a large scale especially things can become complex and hard to navigate.

For instance, how people should deal with:

-Sectarian and personal bias between awakened people and exploring what are important differences and nuances in traditions, approaches, and conclusions vs. cultural baggage,dogma, etc. and being able to learn and benefit from the many current and future sources with both a lot of beneficial wisdom and various limitations and flaws. 

-Future science and various academic fields becoming more open to account for metaphysics, paranormal, etc., and the general problem of people needing to communicate and arrive at consensus models of reality. Being able to account for insights from various reports of direct experiences of the nature of reality is much more tricky business than conducting an experiment to verify that the Earth is spherical. 

Some more examples under the same topic/principle (it's driving the same point home, but I think perhaps the examples might help illustrate.) 

Ex 1: As people develop spiritually, it is somewhat common to have a much broader field of perception, however, the way this develops varies between different people in drastically different ways. It can be difficult considering the various perspectives they bring to the table, especially since you can often learn things from them but can't get in their head and share their exact experience. What's your take on how people should discuss the huge variety of spiritual experiences and take them into consideration when it's not necessarily possible for every individual or even most individuals to verify all of these things in their own direct experience. Some people seem to just be wired in different ways and have legitimate experiences of different things that other people can't-- being understanding of them, their experience, and what to make of it can be quite difficult.

Ex 2: When spiritual growth is considered a universal and essential part of human development rather than just something people like do for comfort, fun, or whatever purpose, the topic of mental health, sanity, etc. becomes drastically more complicated. What kind of infrastructure should be established and what changes in society's approach to mental health should take place to accommodate for this? Someone going through a difficult stretch in their path can simultaneously be growing a ton while seeming horribly unstable, nonsensical, and all-around poorly functioning.

 

I ended up getting more into the large scale/macro-issues/ societal stuff, which I'm not quite sure is on topic.

[Alex Trusk]

If consciousness is the foundation of all reality how can it create objects.  Also if it can exist without perceiving anything how would it exist without an object to perceive to distinguish itself from the object it is perceiving.  Only consciousness sounds like ironically unconsciousness

Edited August 3, 2019 by Alex Trusk
typo

[Enizeo]

If I am actually the same as you, how come I can only see through my eyes, hear my thoughts etc? How can I be sure that you even have any thoughts? Since I can't experience them directly, would that not mean that they are a fantasy?

[Aeris]

Is spirituality a state or a belief system ?

[Peo]

Does there exist higher consciousness that cannot be access with our limit brain and psychedelics?

[Geromekevin]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Good, keep 'em coming.

But also, try to state objections you actually have, rather than restating the well-trodden objections of cynics.

I want objections which are grounded in genuine confusion and puzzlement, not just cynical trolling or devil's advocacy.

What aspects of spirituality are genuinely confusing to you?

I think the simulation theory is true. If you aren't familiar with it, the basic argument goes like this:

1. Soon, we will be able to create a simulation that is indistinguishable from reality.
2. In this simulation you could also create a reality that is indistinguishable from reality because the simulation is indistinguishable from reality.
3. If this is both true, our world could also be a simulation. And you can repeat this argumentation as often as you want. So we could be in a simulation, in a simulation, in a sumilation... ad infinitum until there maybe is a base reality.

In this context here are my questions:
 

• How does spirituality tie in into the simulation theory? Do you just assume that it is wrong and we are living in base reality? Do you think that drugs / awakenings take you back into base reality and or give you experiences from it?
• How do you know, that what you experience aren't just hallucinations? Maybe we will be able to create experiences in different ways (e.g. electric stimulation) that will feel the same? I mean just because it feels real and you could swear that it was and must be real, doesn't mean it is real.
• Spirituality has close to zero value (besides placebo) because it leaves the realm of reason. All there is is math. You can't reliably reproduce spirituality. You can reliably reproduce math and physics.

[abrakamowse]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What aspects of spirituality are genuinely confusing to you?

Leo, the part that we are looking to the world from my eyes, and you from your eyes, etc... confuses me.

I have the idea that if I am everything I should be experiencing all that others are experiencing. If I think is all me, and no one exists it takes me to solipsism that I don't think is true.

 

What's the best way to explain why that happens?

[lmfao]

@Leo Gura Why do you make all these long videos and make so many concepts? Any sort of mystical state I've arrived at is by "seeing through" thoughts and abandoning dualistic labels. The more clarity you have about reality, the less you think you can talk about it, is my experience. Yet it is that you use words like God and love all the time. How are you not deceiving yourself by constantly using these words all the time? You look as though you're in another trap. 

 

Edited August 3, 2019 by lmfao

[Billy Shears]

How can it be that consciousness creates the brain and not vice versa, if someone loses consciousness, when he has brain trauma?

Edited August 3, 2019 by Billy Shears

[Leo Gura]

Some great questions here.

I had many of them myself when I was starting out.

Yeah, consciousness is tricky, tricky stuff.

[Truthority]

1) What is your exact process of arriving at conclusions to the questions presented? How do you verify the reliability of such claims?

2) How can you test the validity of further extrapolations made based on the above? What is your error correction mechanism?

3) Are your views on love and truth and god falsifiable? Do your claims withhold the highest levels of intellectual scrutiny? Is that necessary for you? Do you welcome it? 

4) Where does conscilience fit into your system of thinking (or whatever you want to call it)? 

5) Is there a better way to attain knowledge of the the world around us and within than using the scientific method? Is direct subjective experience truly outside the scope of the western-reductionist-materialist paradigm? If so, how can we explain things rationally if we are questioning the method itself?

6) How is it possible to have a thought about non-thought and claim that there is a world beyond thought? (metacognition)

 

You know, basic shit.

It also seems that you are not actively engaging in any form of public feedback outside your community, no interviews, no debates, no dialogue, no podcasts. Why?