Objections To Spirituality Mega-Thread

[kieranperez]

How is love, goodness, intelligence, etc. not be a relative experience when these things can only be known through experienced through relative experience? Can love, goodness, etc. just be said to be the bedrock base of all that is relative? 

How can gravity not exist prior to my conception of gravity? Things still fall down prior to my conception of gravity. Even if I didn’t even make the distinctions of “things”, there was still an experience of something falling. 

[RendHeaven]

4 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Things still fall down prior to my conception of gravity.

Even if I didn’t make the distinctions of “things”, there was still an experience of something falling. 

You might want to look into this more.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you literally could not say that "falling" occurs if you eliminate things from your worldview.

Actions cannot take place without objects.

You have verbally eliminated objects, and yet you accept actions as occurring because physically you still believe objects exist.

What happens if you seriously eliminate all objects, physically?

That means when "I" "throw" "a rock" "up" and it "hits the ground:"

• There is no "I," and consequently no "throwing."
• There is no "rock," and consequently no "up" for it to aim toward.
• There is no "ground," and consequently no "hitting."

15 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Things still fall down prior to my conception of gravity.

Even if I didn’t make the distinctions of “things”, there was still an experience of something falling. 

This is certainly worth contemplating.

[DrewNows]

“I’m an atheist/agnostic/skeptic, isn’t spirituality just broad name for religions or mysticism?” 

“Enlightenment? I’ve never really heard of that before, sounds like a fairy tale from eastern religions” 

“awakening? Sounds like a midlife crisis” 

“all is one? You must be referring to the “soul” within all life on earth” 

“I don’t know what spirituality  is but existential questions kind of scare me ? “ 

Edited August 3, 2019 by DrewNows

[SerpaeTetra]

Couldn't a Christian God produce this illusion that you are experiencing to test your faith?

[kieranperez]

25 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

You might want to look into this more.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you literally could not say that "falling" occurs if you eliminate things from your worldview.

Actions cannot take place without objects.

You have verbally eliminated objects, and yet you accept actions as occurring because physically you still believe objects exist.

What happens if you seriously eliminate all objects, physically?

That means when "I" "throw" "a rock" "up" and it "hits the ground:"

• There is no "I," and consequently no "throwing."
• There is no "rock," and consequently no "up" for it to aim toward.
• There is no "ground," and consequently no "hitting."

This is certainly worth contemplating.

You’re merely picking apart the limits of the language that is my question. You’re not getting what I’m actually asking.

[Extreme Z7]

• But Leo! How can brains not be real when tampering with the brain can cause observable effects in conscious phenomenon?
   
• But Leo! How is this all different from what mainstream religion teaches?
   
• But Leo! If reality is infinite, how come we live in a limited universe with strict physical laws?
  
  You should have called this "The But Leo!" thread, dude. That would have been funny.

[cetus]

1 hour ago, RendHeaven said:

You might want to look into this more.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you literally could not say that "falling" occurs if you eliminate things from your worldview.

Actions cannot take place without objects.

You have verbally eliminated objects, and yet you accept actions as occurring because physically you still believe objects exist.

What happens if you seriously eliminate all objects, physically?

That means when "I" "throw" "a rock" "up" and it "hits the ground:"

• There is no "I," and consequently no "throwing."
• There is no "rock," and consequently no "up" for it to aim toward.
• There is no "ground," and consequently no "hitting."

This is certainly worth contemplating.

If you would like to add something to Leo's list of "Objections to Spirituality" as @kieranperez has done please feel free to do so.

[RendHeaven]

45 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

You’re merely picking apart the limits of the language that is my question.

@kieranperez Do you insist that your question goes beyond language, imagery, and symbols? Dissolve these and you no longer have a question.

In fact, this could be said of all questions in this thread, although the way in which these symbols are dissolved differ from question to question.

@cetus56 Am I being discouraged from answering certain questions? It's hard to tell. This particular one about gravity caught my interest, as I used to hold the same question in the past.

Anyway, now that you ask: I do indeed have a question!

"But Leo, how could you say that I was never born? I just watched my baby daughter being conceived, are you denying that this is how human beings come to be?"

[cetus]

7 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Am I being discouraged from answering certain questions? It's hard to tell.

@RendHeaven Ok so you couldn't help yourself. @kieranperez hit on a topic you find to be of interest. Just don't turn this into a debate ok?

[RendHeaven]

@cetus56 Gotcha 

[cetus]

@RendHeaven BTW-Congradulations -Dad! Recently learned my daughter and her husband are expecting their first. Seems like just yesterday I was holding a baby girl and now she's going to be a mother herself. How is that an illusion?

[RendHeaven]

@cetus56 Haha, not yet! I'm still 20. I was asking that question from the POV of my cousin. He's the one to congratulate

3 minutes ago, cetus56 said:

Seems like just yesterday I was holding a baby girl and now she's going to be a mother.

This is so fascinating. How do you reconcile the Stillness of the Eternal NOW with the fact that you've watched your daughter grow so much? Do you have to reground yourself every time you imagine the progression of time? Or do you let yourself fantasize, knowing that dualistic thinking is part of life's pleasures?

[abrakamowse]

If I am awareness and I am everything, why am I seeing the world through this eyes and my consciousness feels like is inside my body.

How am I not separated if I am inside this bag of skin?

Edited August 3, 2019 by abrakamowse

[Leo Gura]

Good, keep 'em coming.

But also, try to state objections you actually have, rather than restating the well-trodden objections of cynics.

I want objections which are grounded in genuine confusion and puzzlement, not just cynical trolling or devil's advocacy.

What aspects of spirituality are genuinely confusing to you?

[Key Elements]

Leo, you don't know what's nirvana. You can't just lump everything together and say, "we are one," all the time. That's not the answer all the time.

So, what are the profound differences between them? (Nirvana vs Enlightenment)

[Angelite]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I want your help.

As I do research for my book, I want to gather a potent collection of objections to spirituality, nonduality, enlightenment, mysticism, the paranormal, etc.

I want legit objections that newbies and skeptics commonly have in this work.

Here are some examples to get you thinking along the right lines:

• How can you trust that a subjective experience reveals Absolute Truth?
• Isn't awakening just a subjective brain phenomenon?
• Could awakening be a self-deception?
• Is it possible that there's something beyond Absolute Truth which you could be missing?
• How is awakening different from solipsism?
• How is awakening different from nihilism?
• How is awakening different from pantheism?
• Why do awakened people still commit evil acts like sexually abusing their students?
• If God is real, why would God hide himself from people? Why isn't God evident to all people in the same way that the sun is?
• If awakening is true, why do all the religions disagree so much?
• You say reality is infinite, but doesn't quantum mechanics say there is a fundamental lower limit to space known as the Planck Length?
• Why is love, beauty, goodness, and intelligence a fundamental property of the universe but hate, ugliness, evil, and stupidity are not?
• If God is so loving why would he allow so much evil in the world like rape, torture, genocide, war, etc?
• How can you trust psychedelics reveal valid truths and aren't just subjective hallucinations?
• If science is as wrong about the fundamental metaphysics of reality as you say, how come it's so successful at manipulating reality?
• Why couldn't there be more than one God?
• If physical reality is imaginary, why can't I imagine a million dollars into my bank account or imagine away a physical illness?
• If what you say is true, how come serious scientists aren't talking about it? Where is your Nobel prize?

 

Some answers : 

- The Words -

I read this yesterday.

Spirituality no longer confuses me. Everything make sense. 

Edited August 3, 2019 by Angelite

[Salvijus]

Why someone who's transcended all desire want to help others? What is his motivation to help other people if he has no desire left in him. 

Edited August 3, 2019 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

8 hours ago, moon777light said:

Why do spiritually advanced people still get cancer and sickness?

34.50min

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C229acR7VSY

[DrewNows]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Good, keep 'em coming.

But also, try to state objections you actually have, rather than restating the well-trodden objections of cynics.

I want objections which are grounded in genuine confusion and puzzlement, not just cynical trolling or devil's advocacy.

What aspects of spirituality are genuinely confusing to you?

I’ll have to watch your spirituality video again and report back 

i didn’t find spirituality, it found me  

I’m curious if you’ve explored “Breatharianism” id have to assume you’ve explored it to at least a minor degree 

[RendHeaven]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

What aspects of spirituality are genuinely confusing to you?

I am most confused about the various facets of the Absolute - and that you claim to know them without a doubt.

You say reality is exactly the way it is for a reason - that being, "Absolute Love."

Each hair on your arm is precisely the way it is for the sake of Absolute Love.

...What??

At my current stage of development, Absolute Not-Knowing is King. 

If anything can be known, it is that I do not know. And I would like to end it there, but I can intuit that such a stance is limiting.

So I have to be open to the possibility that actually I CAN Know. But I can't really know that either.

So amidst this profound ignorance, I have also had profound experiences of Reality-Loving. It's impossible to describe.

I recall once showering and breaking down in tears because the water running down my body was LOVE.

Not the word "love," nor the idea of it, nor the conventional conditional bartering of affection, but the water was just IT. Not even "water."

It felt so personal, and I had so much gratitude. (Not in the sense that, "Oh bless this water for providing for me," but rather a gratitude that the water was being itself)

I've more or less begun to accept that Absolute Love is an essential aspect of Reality.

But to say that Absolute Love is the REASON for which Reality IS? My instinct is to say "You don't KNOW that!"

Could it not be the case, rather, that everything is for the sake of being itself, (ultimately without reason) and that Love is the expression/manifestation of this reason-less-ness?

You could wave away this question by merely saying that the words "Reality" and "Love" are interchangeable, but then why stress that everything is for the sake of Love?

Why Oh Why? 

I feel like it's right there at the tip of my tongue, but I just don't got it.

How is it that you've got it?

Edited August 3, 2019 by RendHeaven