Which cities are at the top 5 according to spiral dynamics?

[Dwarniel]

Norway is pretty high up there when it comes to the spiral. I live in the capital of Norway, and it's mostly green, with shades of orange and yellow. I'm guessing that transfers to Denmark and Sweden as well.

[outlandish]

7 hours ago, Aeris said:

Guys this thread is not about féminism.

Maybe open one.

@Apparition of Jack @Identity 

If anyone know about Brighton / ( east south along the coast of UK ) I m about to visit 2 days and take a trip there

How is the law in UK if you smoke weed on the beach ? Cool or angry ?

I know how to pass my 3g. I will only have a hand bagage.

Apparently Brighton is very gay pride.

So it should be very green but that's just my guess. Hope to find some people for party there

lol @Aeris neither is this a thread about drug legality...  the law is really harsh in the UK about weed, definitely do not smuggle drugs into the country, nor consume it openly.

[Aeris]

4 hours ago, outlandish said:

lol @Aeris neither is this a thread about drug legality...  the law is really harsh in the UK about weed, definitely do not smuggle drugs into the country, nor consume it openly.

Nah Man I believe god is with me.

Will take a boat from France

About 2g ?? It's only for 2 days

Yes sure I just think their discussion would be better in a single topic.

For me stage green would mean something like Law i mn California / denver.

That's why to me it seams linked.

[Leo Gura]

@Identity Problematic people exist on all sides, but not in equal proportion.

Racism and reverse-racism are not equivalent. Likewise with feminism and toxic masculinity.

Be careful with false equivalency. It's a very popular form of self-deception these days.

[Shadowraix]

When talking about movements its probably good to be clear if you are referencing the definition of the movement and the current political climate representing it. You'll get two wildly different conversation if you make that distinction.

[playdoh]

On 8/8/2019 at 11:53 PM, SFRL said:

I used to live in Pennsylvania. I have been to Pittsburgh several times. 

Pittsburgh is Pennsylvania after all. Historically there was a lot of coal mining in PA. 

There is a lot of Stage Blue foundation in Pittsburgh. Mixed in with Orange. But also a lot of Stage Green. They got a whole district that breathes very Hippy/stage Green. People generally seem very friendly there. Even if what you want to do isnt really their thing they will still just let you be and do your thing. 

The weather isn't always very nice in PA that's true. Very seasonal. Like I said real estate and rent are cheap. Now I remember, taxes are actually high in the area. On things like fuel, and food etc I believe. For some Historic reasons. 

Still financially you should come out ahead though I think. I rather don't have grey clouds lingering over my monthly expenses. 

Good deal thanks for the info

[playdoh]

15 hours ago, Dwarniel said:

Norway is pretty high up there when it comes to the spiral. I live in the capital of Norway, and it's mostly green, with shades of orange and yellow. I'm guessing that transfers to Denmark and Sweden as well.

I must ask, is that you in your profile picture?

[Dwarniel]

9 hours ago, playdoh said:

I must ask, is that you in your profile picture?

Yes.

[Identity]

@Leo Gura Yeah I get that, just thought you were oversimplifying the situation.

[ArchangelG]

Gothenburg, Sweden, which is my hometown, has a lot of green. It's loosely concidered to be the leftist city of Sweden, which is one of the greenest countries in the world.

[Spiral]

@playdoh You know, not all Scandinavians are blond  That's just a stereotype. 

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Etherial Cat I do see what you mean I assume, yet saying Paris is orange solely would not make sense according to the spiral dynamics model, since it's not "really" possible to regress. There can be backslides, yet otherwise a structure stage is stable once it is reached.

I've interned with an Parisian for a half year, he studied economics and did his masters in Paris somewhere, he did not let me know what his parents did partially till the very end, he was very Green, but also had either an Orange shadow or was Orange/Green, yet mostly he was Green, he complained about the pollution and dirt and said the same about Paris and endless talks about food.... 

So, yes the guy enjoyed to debate, but for the sake of debating and did have some spirit, yet we mostly talked about sports during that time so it was somehow fine, since he liked olympia as well as basketball and sports overall. His parents did have a lot of money and he had a beautiful girlfriend, not sure how..... this fits into sterotypes.

I agree with the superfical aspects mentioned, yet I don't feel Paris is very orange, sure it's the capital and I could be biased because I mainly visited the tourist areas, I've been there 3 times so far for a couple of days and a friend studied there, and lived in Saint-Denis, so I know the otherside from just observing also, but overall I had the impression of Green etc. A lot of cultural places, ethnic diversity, multiculralism, art and openmindedness. My friend also complained about Parisians especially clothing, expensive food and that many students rather did something with their family instead of doing something together, also about the elites. Yet, yellow are also the elites, it's the cutting edge, so it's sort of "natural" that many parsians may be elites if it is a centralized state ( whatever that may mean for now) and a lot of people and all of the best schools reside in Paris. I was curious since I don't speak french how yellow Paris really is since the author mentioned it, I was left the impression that it could be there, especially because of the many art students and students in general I saw. 

I don't think neccesarily showing of ones capabilities, or outperforming others is a clear sign of not yellow, it is categorized as orange. (meritocracy or technocraty) Yellow is still the cutting edge, 20 years ago it was 5% of the global population according to the author, Ken Wilber often rates it higher, and Susan Cookgreuter often very low at 2% or so, and she is from Switzerland. She also established the test for ego development which also goes into integral theory, which is a language based test or sentence completion, that is why I said I don't speak french also. 

I don't disagree but I also don't agree, I was left with the impression it's mostly Green with the usual city spiraling up and down and potentially some Yellow. But I don't speak french.

Edited August 15, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[ArchangelG]

On 2019-08-10 at 3:55 AM, Leo Gura said:

@Identity Problematic people exist on all sides, but not in equal proportion.

Racism and reverse-racism are not equivalent. Likewise with feminism and toxic masculinity.

Be careful with false equivalency. It's a very popular form of self-deception these days.

This was a super interesting post. Could you possibly elaborate on the concept of false equivalency?

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Etherial Cat

2 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

I didn't say it's solely Orange. I think Paris is mostly Orange with some Green. Yet, most of the population is closer to Orange than to a high Green. But If you go to fancy neighborhoods like the XVI arrondissement, you might even get to meet some Blue/Orange, those we called "les Cathos" and are more leaning to be conservative.

Yes, I made an assumption or did not think through my reply thoroughly that is my bad ! I can't deny that most people are Orange/Green I was mainly in the center "downtown" of Paris and I felt a lot of green "vibes", vegan shops and burgers, art, multicultarlism, while near Saint-Denis it was like an average small town with a rather poor inhabitans.

I've never been to XVI arrondissement, I don't also quite understand the arrondissements and departments which are similar to states ? So, I don't know how the overall structure of the country and or states work if it is federal or not, assuming centralized is centralized one goverment rules all. 
 

2 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

Few exception are to be found, as such as the former director of Sciences-Po, Richard Descoings, which I suspect to be a good example of a French Yellow.

I googled him quickly, yet I did not find anything besides his death on Wiki in German. Not sure how it is in another languages, nothing seemed to stand out. 
 

2 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

If you don't speak French and don't have a sufficient background, you can't get the essence of the culture. The francosphere is a whole planet to discover, with several depths of possible understanding.

100% agree.

2 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

I don't think Paris has regressed, but let's say that it's not transitioning fast. It's quite stagnant. The Green consciousness was going full steam from the end of the war until the 80's, overpowering Blue/Orange. Now, it's not anymore the same. Green is still there, but we've got a nice Blue/Orange ego backlash.

One of the reason for this is that the country's sphere of influence is in the decline and its economy is in a really bad shape. The Orange elite has been selling out the country and making bad alliance. The country is being basically strong harmed by its supposed allies and milked by a lazy ruling class. 

This is what I get from Macron in general or what people complain or say about him, that he feeds the elite, I've read his election programm, the only thing I can recall is that he wanted vegan meals to be offered in univeristies and more money for kindergardens or child care.

I also did not see many "consciouness" stuff in Paris or hippies or anything like that most people even if unobstrusively seemed to be worried about their apperance and their body shape, I saw a lot of skinny people IIRC. I don't know how exactly the elites are harming the country, I mean after the "Rezo" Video in Germany, I could say the same about the CDU without having a clue. Assuming you know the parties since you are from Switzerland (?). As well the only thing I know is that all of the yellow-vest protests are about oil prices, which have been risen. Otherwise I don't hear anything from france in the international news. So, I don't know how the elites hurt them. Also, yes there was some new law passed before Macron IIRC which says the emolyer has full control over the working hours or the salary in some sense, or it's not govermentally regulated anymore. So, I can't recall,

I mean gay bars, vegan burgers, multi culturalism and openminded artsy people, seemed very Green and the people also had that "midnight vibe" around them, yet also it did not seem like there are a lot of stuff I could think of as systemic. I mean when looking at Wilbers Quadrants I don't even know if a Yellow city by the LR Quadrant ( Exterior-Collective) exists, since it would be informational, does a subway system count ? E-Scooters ? Rentable bikes, cars, car-sharing all of that is more either Green/orange or if there is some innovation Green/Yellow with HCI as one innovating field in that area. 
 

2 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

The level of self-deception there is frankly lame, there is no one leading the ship. And everyone feels that.  So Blue/Orange/Green are in a cultural war, a bit like in the USA. People are afraid for their own survival and that's not helping. 

I am by far no expert nor do I claim to be one, I am just observing what I saw and know and reflect upon that etc. This will most likely be it, since if I think about it with prudence the only way for an advanced city to not progress into yellow via it's exterior structure would be, that it is able to do that first and foremost I presume, through it's interior collective meaning ego development through the stages. I am not sure how they are decived if I look at it from a pratical point of view and to see a solution just for theories sake, as well as another option I thought of is that a lot of advanced people could have moved to a different city otherwise a regression does not make sense, if the exterior structure is not totally damaged, yet is hampering growth I presume that would be it. Media, Politics, Corruption and the average consciouness level of the people. I always thought of as French as the people who rebel, and the yellow vests definitely show that spirit somehow, I don't know if it is even good or bad etc. Yet, I hope they can achieve something and the country / city can grow. 

I don't know if it is yellow again, since I don't speak french. Potentially there are a bunch more than other countries or Green let alone and yes this is  a weird random "impactful" side fact. It's in German I can only find weird articles in English, but this is from the actual website. https://www.lazeeva.com/de/die-sexuell-offensten-staedte-der-welt/. In the worst case this shows the city or parts of it is above stage blue lol. Or has less conservatives.

Analsex was illegal till 1967 in Britian. 

Edited August 15, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[outlandish]

On 8/15/2019 at 5:03 AM, Etherial Cat said:

Berlin has a lot of Green but very few Yellow. I still haven't met any there, and I've been living in that city for years now. 

Yeah I can imagine that. It's probably a very long stretch to expect to find much Yellow anywhere really. I definitely saw a lot of green when I was there - so many activists, artists living alternative lifestyles, weirdo punks and ex-squatter culture. But if I'm really honest about it, probably most of the city's populace fits into the same general orange as most other modern cities today. Just a bit heavier on the green end than say Frankfurt or Chicago.

 

On 8/15/2019 at 5:25 AM, Etherial Cat said:

As per Switzerland, it depends.

We've got Blue in rural area, Orange and Green in cities. But I suspect that our administration has Yellow individuals and they have been saving the our ass for almost a century.

Our diplomacy and political/economical/social strategy has been absolutely remarkable. Can only come from a nest of Yellow helping out.  Our universities breeds a lot of high Green, and I suspect that they transition to Yellow overtime.

Switzerland's gifts to the world include the Green/Yellow cultural catalyst LSD, as discovered by the mighty Albert Hofmann! I suspect also that there must be some solid veins of Yellow running through the straight-laced and rigid Swiss society.

[Pharion]

I live in Victoria, Canada. Very close to Vancouver. I think we are more at stage green here than vancouver, although of course the dominant culture of the country / hemisphere is still orange. 

But yeah, leader of the federal green party is from here (green in both senses of the word to my knowledge) and the conservative party isn't even in contention. Green party almost always wins by a lot, sometimes NDP (semi socialist party) during elections. Canada as a whole is not really at stage green I think. Maybe it is compared to much of the USA, but not really. Parts of British Columbia are, to an extent though, including Victoria and Vancouver. In terms of anything higher than yellow... I don't think any city is there yet unfortunately. Even the "green" cities i'm talking about are, in reality mostly at orange. 

[Apparition of Jack]

I think Leo's rhetoric makes it seem like Green is more prevalent in parts of the West than it is in reality. Yes, there are parts of Canada, the US, Europe, etc. that have shades of Green, and if you find the right towns/suburbs/etc. you can be around mostly Green people, but for the most part the modern West is still deeply Orange.

Think about how few people take reiki healing or sound therapy seriously for instance - these things work, yet ask your average Western person on the street if they've considered going to them for their ailments (my guess would be less than 10%.) You'd mostly likely get a lot of skeptical responses, or even outright dismissal ("I don't care about that hippy nonsense.") And even the ones who have tried would probably have a very Orange attitude towards them ("Yeah they totally helped my body, just such a good feeling of relaxation, it helps me stress less at work, LOL".)

I think your best bet is to assume wherever you're going is going to be mostly Orange, and just live your life in such a way that you help it transition to Green. It will still take time for the West to reach a "true" Green level, but there are inklings of it happening as we speak, and I imagine over the coming decades the increasingly-obvious contradictions of materialism (philosophical and consumerist) and increasingly-untenable Blue/Orange social mindset in the face of demographic changes will push us towards true Green naturally.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Apparition of Jack

[outlandish]

@Apparition of Jack holding up specific indicators like Reiki or sound therapy as prerequisites for green is a bit dogmatic isn't it? IMO spiral dynamics is a lot more big-picture than that. Sure, some green people will be into Reiki, but it's certainly not a 1:1 relationship.

I do agree that it's pretty optimistic to call almost any society on the planet Green at this point in history. You definitely see it more strongly in some areas than others, but even the most "green" places are probably actually predominantly orange still. It's relative too though - what once looked like radical green is now standard fare in a lot of places, and what feels like normal behaviour in one place seems extremely progressive when you go back to a place a further down into orange. At some point it is just a model. A very useful one though.

[Apparition of Jack]

@outlandish Sure, obviously I don't think you need to be into New Age healing stuff in order to be solidly grown. However, I will say that I feel like being interested in these things is a good indicator that a person is truly in Green, rather than just teetering within it.

Honestly, I don't think the metaphysical aspects of SD development can be stated enough. Even though there's a lot of quakery and half-baked ideas in the stage Green New Age / hippie movements, the idea that reality is fundamental composed of energy, motion, vibrations, emotions, etc. is, believe it or not, still more accurate / more holistic than the stage Orange idea that it's all just reducible matter. I know it's anecdotal evidence, but just in my own life I've been able to seriously embody the social / environmental / political aspects of Green much stronger after I accepted the validity of the metaphysical aspects of Green.

I mean, think about any stage Turquoise figures. Sadhguru, the Dalai Lama, Yoda, etc. All of these figures would affirm the efficacy of alternative healing, even if they would hold more nuanced positions on these than most stage Green people do. I don't think someone can truly reach the tops of the spiral whilst still holding onto the idea that alternate healing / astrology / etc. is just "kinda nice but not that important", or so on.

[Raphael]

What do you guys think about Bruxelles?