Why Talent Is Overrated in Spirituality (Shinzen Young Case Study)

[zeroISinfinity]

@mandyjw Yeah I did need all of that but only after enlightenment. 

Why? Because everything collapse and you have milion questions and on top of that spiritual teachings don't correspond quite accuratelly. ?

I do it in counter way. Get "experience" and after it I do research for comfirmation. 

Without help I would tought something along These lines.

Omfg I am literally devil and I have to die for God. I do not need life and all other crap I do not need forms. I want home. ?

 

[zeroISinfinity]

@Aakash Drop thinking. Simple. 

Thinking separates you from the world and creates "others". 

False notion that you are aware of outside world. 

Look it as this way. I am Consciousness. Look around, I am everything around "me". 

Notice that all "objects' have same 'value'. Your body is not more important then everything else. 

What Will might help you to break from conditioned materialistic notion is to stop looking at the world as bunch of separated objects/particle. See it as unified field, look everything as energy/ocean like. 

[student]

@Leo Gura

Do you think people with spiritual giftedness can regress and change their brain chemistry?
Can they block their gift as to lose it? Can you make permanent damages and not be able to access it anymore? What they've been able to do one day, not being able to do it ever again?

Or can you voluntarily block it, reject it, and therefore lose it? Or some of its power.

Or it is actually impossible lose the "foundation"?

I am talking more exactly about neuroplasticity.

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Aakash said:

Then there's also the added fact that i have never had an enlightenment experience

A small crack, nonetheless that light practically blinded me. Seeing you for the first time. Nice.  ??♥️

Would you like to?

[Truthority]

Talent is for amateurs. 

Do the work, fall in love with the process. That is the path of the master.

It is not wise to compare yourself to Picasso if you want to paint. 

You can read all the books on swimming but until you jump in the water, you will never know what it feels like.

Drugs are just another experience. Remember, there are no ordinary moments. If you think there are shortcuts, you are deluding yourself. 

This is all a distraction. Get back to work. 

Your old friend boredom is waiting for you with open legs. 

Get your face in there.

Go to town on that bush.
 

Those who talk, don’t know. 
Those who know, don’t talk. 
- Tao Te Ching

 

[Aakash]

47 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

But on the flip side of this is getting cocky about it.  If it isn't coming from the heart and soul it isn't going to have any of those good nutrients in it.  Well, it might have some, I can't say it wouldn't have any - but the nutrients will be flat.

The downsides of it by my understanding are: 

believing your ego is better than others 

believing that other's can't reach your level of "special-ness" 

believing that your gifts are god given especially for you, instead of something you cultivated as a result of standing on the shoulder of giants

believing that others should reach your level of standards (wholesomely) 

believing that there are not people that can overtake you (complacency) 

believing that you need to sabotage others, so it doesn't diminish your reputation 

believing in your special-ness as an identity itself

believing you know what's best for others and everything as a whole 

believing that you need to be the best for insecurity reasons (which is intertwined with your reason for needing to be the best- the double edge sword that can't be stopped, as a result of it being double edged) The double edge part isn't bad, but its when you project it to others that its bad

believing that your superior and not listening to the viewpoints of others 

believing in your best-ness and obscuring your reality (which is actually required to reach the top in the first place) its when it becomes pathological that you start feeling the need to sabotage others

These are probably the most unconscious ones. Ofcourse, if you were conscious you would question these before putting it into perspective of best-ness. The truth is at the end of the day, if your the best your the best. You can't get away from this statement by merely proclaiming humble-ness but this is the projection aspect. My morality lies with this: if you have it then you can say it. You have to work for it, there is no way a baby can be the best and that's just facts. 

My view of the best is top 10 -20 in any field. To me once you've reached over a certain threshold there's nothing seperating you from others that are also top of the game besides statistics. And statistics are down to your past history and there are too many factors involved to simple state you are the best just because you had the best environment, teachers etc. This is relatively inaccurate statement. So the best for me is always top 20 or so people in any field. Like you can't say there's any difference between martin luther king and buddha, they're equally as best as each other. 

 

[Angelite]

I don't know how to explain this, but...

why are you guys comparing yourself to the Prophets? Jesus and Buddha etc. All based on pure assumptions..

 

Here's what they've got to say;

14:11

Their messengers said to them: "True, we are human like yourselves, but Allah does grant His grace to such of his servants as He pleases. It is not for us to bring you an authority except as Allah permits. And on Allah let all men of faith put their trust."

 

They are the chosen ones. The prophets and the messengers. If I'm not mistaken, there's over 100 000 prophets (in the past). Apart from these, there are many saints. Some we know of, some we don't. 

There are many scriptures, scrolls and Tablets. But the last one is the Quran. It is full circle. 

My guru says, their levels, cannot be compared to those that came after them. It is not the same. 

.......

Upon reading this thread, what comes to mind is, what is the purpose of enlightenment to everyone? 

Why do people wanna get awakened/enlightened? 

What's the roots?

Edited July 29, 2019 by Angelite

[Aakash]

25 minutes ago, Truthority said:

Talent is for amateurs. 

Do the work, fall in love with the process. That is the path of the master.

It is not wise to compare yourself to Picasso if you want to paint. 

You can read all the books on swimming but until you jump in the water, you will never know what it feels like.

Drugs are just another experience. Remember, there are no ordinary moments. If you think there are shortcuts, you are deluding yourself. 

This is all a distraction. Get back to work. 

Your old friend boredom is waiting for you with open legs. 

Get your face in there.

Go to town on that bush.
 

Those who talk, don’t know. 
Those who know, don’t talk. 
- Tao Te Ching

again this is about humble-ness. There is no need to put moral standards on things like being the best. 

This just makes things seem insignificant when they are actually special. if it breeds jealousy, this is actually good because it forces others to be better. 

Also there is a need to compare yourself to greats, because there's no person alive who is better than you. There are just people who are better at certain aspects of the same "field" as you. However, overall all contributions were needed to lay foundations for that specific field. So relatively there is nothing that is more special than others. 

By this logic, there would be no reason for me to overtake Leo, this is a self-limiting biased. There is nothing godly about leo in my eyes that proves to me that he is any better than me. BUT i acknowledge that there are things that leo can do, that i can't do. And thats the great thing about diversity, there's no absolute relative standard that can compare two people. Therefore by this logic itself. There is ONLY special people and that pertains to everyone! 

Competition is not a negative thing, its negative when done unconsciously by BOTH PARTIES. Competition breeds the best out of people and that's how it should be. competition is a beautiful thing. Its because you know that there are people better than yourself, that makes you want to be better than them. its pathological when the overall success is deemed by titles! "best in the world" "best team of all time" "best of the best" "best in the field" because as i've said to work for such a goal is ridiculous. nonetheless, its an aspiration, and the journey itself that actually matter as you said

When you can see your opponent as beautiful then there is no animosity and it breeds a level playing field. What needs to happen is people actually need to help their enemies to raise their game, so that in turn it will let you raise your own game. You take responsibility for both parties, because the ripple effect will help everyone. Scratch each others back. it is loses that breeds great champions, it is not actually success. A champion who has never failed, is no champion. A champion who reached where they did by pure luck and never acknowledged it as pure luck is no champion. This is humility when you can turn around and say, you did not do it by your own efforts. This is the cultural issue we see with stage orange. The need to brag that they achieved things on their own, when in fact they never. its actually a lie. 

The way a teacher- student relationship should go is as follows 

Teacher teaches student 

Student challenges teacher about their position on certain features of their teaching

Student fails in attempt to challenge position 

Student regroups 

Student challenges teacher and fails over and over and over again 

Student develops their own method and innovates and creates

Student challenges teacher and wins 

Teacher regroups and become better 

Teacher challenges Teacher for new teacher position 

Teacher who loses, turns into student   or this is the final match and either teacher goes away and does their own thing, repeating the cycle with other students , and this breeds the best teachers, the best students

This is the process of mastery,

1) Learn knowledge or skill

2) create via knowledge or skill 

3) master skill or knowledge with your own individuality

individuality breeds success

When you start factory farming students, that's when you can measure them as a relative representative. Things should be so diverse it should be hard to create a model for modelling people. Therefore improving the standards on which such skills and knowledge are based on. This process repeats again

its about bringing the best out of each person individually and its loses that make this happen. If everyone won, it would stop this and therefore competition should be fair and equal. NOT rigged for everyone to win

Edited July 29, 2019 by Aakash

[Aakash]

@Angelite This is enlightened competition!! 

You can't stop the force of nature, you must react or die. 

What happens when you become enlightened is you detach from your story and so your ego isn't involved with the outcome. It does no benefit for the actual ego itself. There are many ways to define "ego" ,the ego you are talking about is a sense of "i" 

the ego i am talking about in this case is a superior unhealthy "ego" , what i'm trying to show is what a "healthy ego" looks like from both student and teacher and people who claim they are the best. 

Its impossible to demonize ANYTHING in reality because it is you. To escape , run away, reject , is all things enlightenment deals with to end suffering. What needs to actually happen is people need to become more conscious to destroy their ego. Its like i keep saying to people there are three forms of enlightenment. Each as equally highest truths as the other ones. 

whatever way you define ego is what ever way you will be enlightened from that ego

Edited July 29, 2019 by Aakash

[noselfnofun]

This is definitely a thing, I think it comes down to past lives but I have witness many people take this path and some seem to make very small progress despite doing lots of pratice. This is also a common thing in monasterys. 

Also bare in mind being gifted in this area comes with it's own problems. I'm not saying I have talent in this area I wouldn't know for sure, but I have put in massive amounts of work and expirenced alot, I had no self expirneces at the age of 4.  The deeper you go the more u feel different from the rest of the world and it's so hard to find people to relate to, even people on the path. You have to water down your insights so people can understand you and not think your crazy. It can be frustrating. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by noselfnofun

[ValiantSalvatore]

Not sure what is wrong with shinzen young and the category of sensory experience, since I am training with his techniques. I tried other techniques do-nothing, self-inquiry etc. He includes so many techniques which stem from other techniques, for e.g he also recommended to me body sweeping for dealing with kriyas and his techniques also evolved listening to older guided meditations from him, I am not sure what for e.g is the most advanced technique or a tier list of the best techniques where people receive a lot of results, even if they are different etc.

Also as far as I assume Shinzen does not deny sidhis etc. in his new video he even explains the neuroanatomy of how sidhis can occure and how the process of experiencing sound changes as well and which parts of the brain-body are involved. I also know he does shamanic rituals, not sure how deep they go, I know he tried psychdelics like LSD, and his story/history with procrastination and taking responsibility, even smoking grass, he speaks openly about this.

He also gives similar advice as Culasada I bought the audiobook and read some articles online about the stages. I am not sure how I can rate myself on this scale of stages yet. I assume I am somwhere around 6-7 (potentially hitting 8 my brain is annoying) by reading the description. For e.g extremely strong experiences/sensations of cold or heat can be a sign of a higher stage (7+) IIRC shinzen adviced a guy during lpp, that he can focus on them intensly, and it sounded a bit absurd, but it is basically Form changing with whatever process of biochemical/physical/neurochemical change.

Culadasa denied that there is spiritual talent, I am not sure why and I am not sure if I recall correctly, yet he said something about this topic in the "BuddahAtTheGasPump" interview. 

Also Shinzen mentioned in his audiobook that the great great masters never talk with each other, he is open to it I assume since he wanted me to know that learning the technical terms of each tradition is important incase I want to converse about them with others and not cause any incomprehensibleness. Yet , it is rarely seen that many spiritual masters gather around and 

Shinzen Young also mentioned he knows spiral dynamics in the last lpp, he made a slight "allusion" and said instead of an upward spiral, you spiral upwards "like" spiral dynamics etc. And again if anyone is interested I'll send the talk. 

Also I assume and for sure correct me if I am wrong that Leo mentioned that teachers do not share everything they know, they would be called a lunatic etc. I notice this when Shinzen gives advice to others and they come to him and he gives them a very different response for e.g than me, yet it is important to mention personality types even the teacher liking you etc. does matter. Same with the monks at the zen retreat, sprial dynamics explains a lot of this, especially if there is a physics major present. 

He also speaks about makiyo and power releams I am not sure how far this is fusionable ( can be conflated..) with machine elves, trees talking, people experiencing angles etc. Or if this is just the subtle releam ( with reference to wilber). 

I am not denying anything that was said in the thread, I assume it will mostly fall on deaf ears, I don't have much experiences with sidhis or stuff that I will regard as power releams etc or the subtle releam. I do did experience one thing that I would clearly lable as non-ordinary etc.

I never talked with a master about psychedelic experiences if I get the chance I will ask, yet I am not sure which spiritual grandmasters are willing to talk about this. 

Also as far as I read I am not sure how deeply enlightend the buddah was, yet he did confuse in his teachings samsara and nirvana seeing them as dual, not non-dual the yogachakra schools were the ones who created the concept of non-duality that samsara and nirvana are one, and seeing into the illusory nature of samsara is nirvana. It seemd more nuanced and relative. 

Shinzen does not necessarily include developmental psychology and achievments about biology, neuroscience and the shadow potentially, directly into his teaching, potentially subtely he definitely shares parts of the things included above in his dharma talks. But, yes he mentioned neurological change in his new video somewhere around the end, I'll link it for thoese interested. As I said I could be wrong he speaks about this sidhi IMO! Dibba-sota https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhi and mentions the east asian term, additionaly the science behind it or it is just a purification of the senses.

@ardacigin
@Leo Gura

Edited July 29, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[electroBeam]

15 hours ago, Lynnel said:

You wouldn't know what spiritually gifted is unless you had a ground for comparison.

Maybe you're actually quite gifted to begin with and someone else wouldn't have had your spiritual experiences if he were under the exact same conditions.

For instance I've always assumed that anyone is able to change as much as a do or take personnal development as seriously as I do, and actually get what they want - but the more I talk to people the more I feel gifted because they seem to be stuck for no particular reason. It just doesn't click. 

I've had a personality type extremely oriented towards accomplishement and also a strong belief in anything being possible which already was the case even when I had zero personnal development work.

I've had the exact same experience, but concluded a completely different answer.

Why I say this is because I've literally been in, and experienced being stuck, and being non stuck, being spiritually gifted, and being spiritually non gifted.

 

I Know, and have observed that the things that have made me unstuck were watching Leo's videos at the exact right time, and at the right place in my life. 

 

Materialism broke down when I started watching Leo's videos and miraculously I quit university - the materialistic pumping machine.

 

Such coincidences was not a partial support but the CAUSE of materialism being destroyed.

 

Leo has a point, everyone isn't the same and is certainly different. In University I use to study at least 40 hours a week for maths and still failed. I knew friends who didn't study at all and passed. I also clearly(with evidence) identified WHY I was failing, and observed within myself that the way I was thinking was the cause of the failure, and others clearly didn't have this way of thinking. Also cognitive abilities like memory change massively. As he says, it is a massive relief and joy to admit and realize that my failures were not from being lazy, but from this innate different way of thinking.

[Truthority]

Quote

Teacher teaches student

False trichotomy. 

Time to drop it. 

The guru is within.
- Yogani

[Aakash]

@Truthority Where did you learn that you learnt it from a teacher. 

Don’t think you can do everything yourself. 

Even the teacher had to teach you how to go inside. 

Quoting non-duality is Not helpful sometimes to others. Still I appreciate the thought 

[Lynnel]

7 hours ago, electroBeam said:

I've had the exact same experience, but concluded a completely different answer.

Why I say this is because I've literally been in, and experienced being stuck, and being non stuck, being spiritually gifted, and being spiritually non gifted.

This is getting a bit muddy.

Image your spirituality inborn skill level (think of dragon ball xD) is 30. When you're stuck it's 30 and when you're not stuck you can achieve something like 400. Maybe thirthy would be gifted compared to someone who started with then and whose experience of being stuck would be longer or more painful/grindy. You have no way to know how good your baseline is. That's the point here.

Nonetheless I tend to think that discussions about talent are usually not helpful as it's often used overall as an excuse in one way or another.

You could've been bad at math simply because you misunderstood some basic math down the line and since math is extremely linear and builds up like a pyramid, it's easy to see how you would have failed Thinking that you're failing because you're special or different is exactly what we need to avoid in our thinking.

[electroBeam]

10 hours ago, Lynnel said:

You could've been bad at math simply because you misunderstood some basic math down the line and since math is extremely linear and builds up like a pyramid, it's easy to see how you would have failed Thinking that you're failing because you're special or different is exactly what we need to avoid in our thinking.

No that's definitely not true.

I was thought to have dyslexia by my teachers, a disease which prevents your left side of the brain functioning in the same way as most others.

 

It is definitely possible to be bad at maths, and realizing so has many benefits. I was called lazy by my parents and punished for my bad marks even though I studied hours upon hours. Imagine if the world was aware that you could actually be bad at maths? No punishment and acceptance of the grades and a focus of doing a different subject you enjoy.

[Key Elements]

On 7/28/2019 at 0:48 PM, Leo Gura said:

The more I study and explore spirituality, the more convinced I am that spiritual talent plays a bigger and bigger role. I have met and talked with people who access crazy superhuman levels of consciously totally effortlessly without training. And these people can go deeper than those who practice for 40 years.

It's quite unfair and outrageous. This is like a dirty giant secret of spirituality and meditation which no one tells you about because they want to believe we are all equal.

Well, the truth is, we are nowhere close to equal.

My experiments with psychedelics back this up. There are levels of consciousness so radical that you will never access them if you lack the proper neurotransmitters.

Leo, I'm curious to know, how will this help you? Especially what you said on the last paragraph. If the consciousness is so "radical," how will this help? Does this mean, for instance, that you won't be reincarnated? Or, what? Did it make you less needy? Did it tell you something more about life? Most of all, in one of your blog videos, you were saying that Shinzen Young's and Peter Ralston's enlightenment isn't that deep? Did they tell you exactly? No? Well, how deep do you want it? Don't they all point to the same thing after a certain point? Any form of "everythingness" that you see in your trips is still everythingness. To me, you don't know how deep are their enlightenment. Shinzen Young might be using a metaphor, like "Riding the Ox Backwards" to sum up the whole thing. It's just to communicate to his audience. Ralston might be doing the same thing.

Another thing that Shinzen Young said was, "Enlightenment is a many faceted jewel. Today's enlightenment is tomorrow's mistake." This sounds like another metaphor. He must've had very profound awakenings. In the second sentence of this quote, it sounds like what he is saying is, even after the deepest awakening, which is "Riding the Ox Backwards," you still have to live life to the fullest and reach milestones in order to go deeper and for more genuine awakenings to occur.

[Leo Gura]

On 7/29/2019 at 0:37 AM, ardacigin said:

Leo, I understand this argument. It makes total sense. But when it comes to spiritual attunement and awakening, we are not talking about different species. What you extrapolate from the calculus example makes sense in the context of a donkey and a human's ability to learn math. Obviously, there are different. You can't find even one donkey who can do calculus. But within human beings, there is a vast degree of success in awakening.

Some people's reality and consciousness is so radically different they might as well be another species. You guys are underestimating just how radically different consciousness can be for humans. This is a common oversight because humans looks similar from outside appearances. But as you've been told, don't judge a book by its cover. This is what's happening with humans. Most humans simply assume that all humans are like them. This is a bad assumption unsupported by science, evolution, medicine, genetics, or other facts.

It's as if you walk into a book store and treat all the books the same just because they are books. But there are huge differences between books even though they have a similar form. That similarity is superficial when you really dig into them.

Some humans are like that donkey, they will never attain enlightenment. The reasons for this are nuanced and complex. Motivation is part of the equation. Most people do not have the motivation to do it. You cannot dismiss motivation as part of the "talent". Motivation is a huge factor. You cannot just train someone to be motivated about Truth. Yes, training helps, but there's much more to it than training. And who you can train also depends on who they are. Many people are untrainable.

There is no reason whatsoever that all humans should be equally spiritually capable given how evolution works. The difference between a human and a donkey doesn't really exist. Brains evolve to become more and more capable of insight. There is no such thing as "a human brain" vs "a donkey brain". There is an infinite spectrum of brain structure -- from worms to aliens -- which allows for greater and greater insight capacity.

Quote

This is what I meant by Shinzen Young's case study. Even if he is not the most enlightened guy in the world, his beginning point is really inspirational. And don't underestimate his achievements from that shaky foundation.

His insight into perception and sensory experience is problematic, sure! But he can do 4 hours of SDS sits weeks in a row. And that was decades ago. He had stream entry only 4 years into the training. The permanent deal. Someone can easily say this is because he was spiritually talented but I don't think brushing off training is the correct mindset here. This guy was was only a little different from your average Joe prior to zen training.

Consider how awake he would be if he flipped burgers at McDonald's vs living in a monastery meditating 10+ hours a day. How can you downplay training and environment so much?

I don't downplay any of that. That's all good and important.

But my concern is not any of that. My concern is accessing the deepest level of consciousness and understanding. For that, training alone may not be enough for most people. That's all I'm saying.

Quote

Human beings have similar brains. Not perfectly similar but mostly similar. It is not like a donkey's and human's brain. If humans who train their minds get awakening and progress, so can 'most' people. Not everyone, maybe. But most people will make it work as long as they stick to it. 

Otherwise, this absurdly turns into a victim mentality.

Not as similar as you imagine.

On 7/29/2019 at 1:13 AM, Enlightenment said:

More than 0.0001% of the population is awake, about 0.1 to 1%. Of course to various degrees.

Nowhere near 0.1% of the population is awake. It's way lower than that. And when it comes to truly understanding the deep structures of God, it's less than 0.0001%.

I would estimate that less than 0.1% of awake people truly understand how deep awakening goes and all of its many facets.

Quote

Leo, you seem to believe that genetics plays a huge role and is a big limiting factor for people when it comes to spirituality but not when it comes to sexuality, getting woman, you know "the black pill" guys?

It's more important in spirituality than in getting women.

Obviously if you look like Quasimodo that affects your chances attracting women. Although still not impossible.

My biggest concern with the Red/Black Pill guys is that they use genetics as an excuse to not even try. They turn it into an egotistical ideology. Obviously I'm not saying that with spirituality. I'm not making some argument here about how you cannot realize God. I'm just saying your physiology plays an important role. So alter your physiology, alter your neurotransmitters! That is what spiritual technique is about.

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So if even on high doses of psychedelics you're still limited, how then can you say you've experienced Ultimate Reality? If this is true, humans will never discover the Ultimate Reality simply because they haven't evolved to discover the truth.

Yes, you ARE still limited as long as you have a human body.

But, that doesn't mean you can't access the Absolute. You can. You can access it deeper and deeper levels and facets. Degrees of depth here do not contradict each other, rather they build on top of each other. It's like this: you can learn some math, it will be valid math, but that doesn't mean you've exhausted your understanding of math. Math goes very deep. As you go deeper into it, the old math is still valid. So in this way you are accessing Truth but you have not exhausted Truth, because Truth is infinite. Your understanding of math can deepen forever.

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Also, how can you know if Shinzen Young and other advanced meditators haven't experienced (at least as a temporary state) all the depths of awakening you talk about? I know that some people are very nihilistic and don't get so excited as you do, they simply have a totally different personality than you and no matter how amazing thing they will experience it will always seem dull when they talk about it. How an individual reacts and what conclusions he draws from the experience of God varies quite a bit.

It's hard to articulate that here for you. I have had extensive hour-long conversations with Shinzen, asking him all sorts of nuanced metaphysical questions and his replies did not fully satisfy me. I see him as having gaps in his understanding. For example, he does not hold that enlightenment is Absolute Truth. He still hangs on to aspects of materialism, holding enlightenment as a subjective thing. I do not think he understands what Truth or Consciousness really is. I also don't think he understandings what Love really is.

On 7/29/2019 at 5:08 AM, student said:

@Leo Gura

Do you think people with spiritual giftedness can regress and change their brain chemistry?
Can they block their gift as to lose it? Can you make permanent damages and not be able to access it anymore? What they've been able to do one day, not being able to do it ever again?

Yes

Quote

Or can you voluntarily block it, reject it, and therefore lose it? Or some of its power.

Or it is actually impossible lose the "foundation"?

I am talking more exactly about neuroplasticity.

Yes

If you think about it for a moment you should quickly realize that it must be possible to lose enlightenment because otherwise humans could not exist. To be human God MUST be able to lose awareness of itself as God. This is how you were born. And no matter how enlightened you get, you will eventually lose it in order to incarnate as a tree, worm, bird, human, alien, etc.

You already have direct experience of being unawakened. How did you get there? Only one way: by losing your awakening. Everyone has lost their awakening, even the most enlightened people including Buddha and Jesus. Otherwise they could not awaken.

Awakening is only possible because of unawakening.

On 7/29/2019 at 11:20 AM, ValiantSalvatore said:

Also as far as I assume Shinzen does not deny sidhis etc. in his new video he even explains the neuroanatomy of how sidhis can occure and how the process of experiencing sound changes as well and which parts of the brain-body are involved. I also know he does shamanic rituals, not sure how deep they go, I know he tried psychdelics like LSD, and his story/history with procrastination and taking responsibility, even smoking grass, he speaks openly about this.

Nothing I said contradicts that. I never said he denies siddhis. I'm not just talking about siddhis in this thread.

Trying some psychedelics doesn't mean much. It's a question of what one has become conscious of using them. Lots of people have tried psychedelics and have little understanding to show for it.

My claim is not merely that Shinzen doesn't have all the possible siddihis. My claim is that his understanding of Truth itself is incomplete. He's not wrong, but it's not the deepest level. I'm  not contradicting him, I'm just saying there's deeper understanding, deeper insight, deep consciousness.

1 hour ago, Key Elements said:

Leo, I'm curious to know, how will this help you? Especially what you said on the last paragraph. If the consciousness is so "radical," how will this help? Does this mean, for instance, that you won't be reincarnated? Or, what? Did it make you less needy? Did it tell you something more about life?

How it will help is a question of survival. That's not my interest. My interest is understanding reality for its own sake. Whether it helps or hurts is irrelevant to me. The Truth is whatever it is regardless of how it effects you.

Any benefits that understanding of reality offers are secondary and beside the point (for me).

Quote

Most of all, in one of your blog videos, you were saying that Shinzen Young's and Peter Ralston's enlightenment isn't that deep? Did they tell you exactly? No? Well, how deep do you want it? Don't they all point to the same thing after a certain point? Any form of "everythingness" that you see in your trips is still everythingness. To me, you don't know how deep are their enlightenment.

The deeper one goes, the clearer it becomes who has and who hasn't gone that deep.

The things I've realized cannot be put into words in any way whatsoever nor taught in any way whatsoever. And yet I can intuit that Shinzen Young and Ralston have not realized what I have realized. If that sounds arrogant to you, I understand. But it is what it is from my POV.

Shinzen doesn't understand Truth.

Ralston doesn't understand Love.

To me, those are important oversights. I would not be satisfied missing either of those understandings.

Obviously these are my understandings of their attainments. I could be wrong. I'm not saying you should believe me. I'm just stating my best understanding of the situation at this time. Certain things they have told me do not square up with my deepest realizations. And I will doubt all teachers before I doubt my own deepest realizations.

If the choice comes down to trusting 5-MeO-DMT and DPT vs trusting Shinzen and Ralston, I will trust the neurotransmitters. And no, that is not materialism. Direct consciousness is king, and that's what the right neurotransmitters facilitate. No human teacher can take you that deep. All human teachers and teachings are to be questioned and doubted. Including of course myself.

- - - - - - - -

P.S. Nothing I said here should be used to entrench a victim mentality. Keep two things distinct in your mind: 1) the actual mechanics of how humans awaken, 2) any stories you come up with for why you cannot awaken and why should give up or not even try. I am talking about #1 in this thread. #2 is self-deception you gotta be very careful with.

When it comes to genetics and physiology you gotta make the best of the hand you've been dealt. Playing a victim is not a smart move regardless of how bad your hand is.

[Peo]

On 29.7.2019 at 4:13 AM, Leo Gura said:

I've met people who've sat down for one weekend, did 2 days of self-inquiry and awakened. That's totally unusual results. The average person can self-inquiry for 5 years and still not awaken.

That is pretty funny cuz i also had an awakening experience to the no-self or in other words the nothingness doing just 2 days self-inquiry. If i manged to surrender to the nothingness i might became awakened. 

[mandyjw]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Some humans are like that donkey, they will never attain enlightenment. The reasons for this are nuanced and complex. Motivation is part of the equation. Most people do not have the motivation to do it. You cannot dismiss motivation as part of the "talent". Motivation is a huge factor.

There is no reason whatsoever than all humans should be equally spiritual capable given how evolution works. The difference between a human and a donkey doesn't really exist. Brains evolve to become more and more capable of insight. There is no such thing as "a human brain" vs "a donkey brain". There is an infinite spectrum of brain structure which allows for greater and greater insight capacity.

If you think about it for a moment you should quickly realize that it must be possible to lose enlightenment because otherwise humans could not exist. To be human God MUST be able to lose awareness of itself as God. This is how you were born. And no matter how enlightened you get, you will eventually lose it in order to incarnate as a tree, worm, bird, human, alien, etc.

You already have direct experience of being unawakened. How did you get there? Only one way: by losing your awakening. Everyone has lost their awakening, even the most enlightened people including Buddha and Jesus. Otherwise they could not awaken.

Awakening is only possible because of unawakening.

Shinzen doesn't understand Truth.

Ralston doesn't understand Love.

To me, those are important oversights. I would not be satisfied missing either of those understandings.

Just wondering if I'm off in drawing these conclusions. God doesn't care whether or not anyone gets enlightened, God loves all people the same. Yet in everyone there's a seed (as we are created in the image of God) that under the correct conditions, grows, maybe it flowers, and maybe... it even bears fruit. Yet when one bears fruit and aligns himself with God, God is still conscious of all others as one with itself and time is nonexistent so ultimately enlightenment and gaining or losing it itself is part of the illusion. You are everything and everyone and if you miss love as the connecting force you'll be choked out by weeds. Love burns up completely the elitism and unfairness as illusion, you cannot be separate from those who are "unenlightened".