Why Talent Is Overrated in Spirituality (Shinzen Young Case Study)

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

When you write “enlightened person”, does that suggest clarity and understanding in all those components? Or could an enlightened person have degrees of clarity and understanding? For example, deep, clear, integrated understanding in #2 / #3, yet several gaps of understanding in #4 / #5.

In practice no. We usually use that word "enlightenment" quite sloppily to designate any degree of nondual realization. Often times the degree of it is minor and narrow.

Many people who are conventionally called "enlightened" do not understand all of those 5 points I mentioned. And there are more points besides those 5.

Binary designations are very misleading. You should always wonder: To what degree is this guy enlightened? What does he really understand? What specifically has he become conscious of?

It's like if someone told you he's doctor. Okay, but that doesn't say much. What really matters is, How good of a doctor is he? Not all doctors are the same.

7 hours ago, electroBeam said:

@Leo Gura How do you keep motivated about enlightenment if you are conscious that you will reincarnate as a tree?

You are the entire universe. What more do you want?

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Also why do you care about truth? 

Because there is nothing but Truth. Nothing else matters. How could God not care about itself when there is nothing but itself?

7 hours ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

They don't use human ego mind, but they may be so immersed in god-consciousness, that they actually know without knowing.

I mean, if I think of my glimpses I have at night, there also isn't a human knowing there either..

They are not immersed in God-consciousness. They are immersed is mindless survival and selfishness, as are most humans. They are totally clueless about God even though of course they are God all along. But they don't know that, and that's what matters: knowing it.

[Enlightenment]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Nowhere near 0.1% of the population is awake. It's way lower than that.

Jeffery Martin says it's about 1%, maybe he is wrong.

 

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I would estimate that less than 0.1% of awake people truly understand how deep awakening goes and all of its many facets.

Pretty much no awakened people are talking about what you are talking about so yes.

 

 

 

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My concern is accessing the deepest level of consciousness and understanding. 

My interest is understanding reality for its own sake. Whether it helps or hurts is irrelevant to me.

I'm just saying your physiology plays an important role. So alter your physiology, alter your neurotransmitters! That is what spiritual technique is about.

Maybe if you want to access the deepest experiences and understanding you need to alter your neurotransmitters. However, this is one aspect of spirituality and most people doing spiritual work are into enlightenment AKA having persistent shifts that stick with you and will reduce your suffering even when you stop meditating. I know how amazing psychedelics and their afterglow feels but it always ends and we're back to the normal state of suffering and dissatisfaction. You just seem to have unusual goals as a spiritual seeker. I don't think there is the one right way to be spiritually, we can do whatever we want.

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Leo Gura

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Nothing I said contradicts that. I never said he denies siddhis. I'm not just talking about siddhis in this thread.

Trying some psychedelics doesn't mean much. It's a question of what one has become conscious of using them. Lots of people have tried psychedelics and have little understanding to show for it.

My claim is not merely that Shinzen doesn't have all the possible siddihis. My claim is that his understanding of Truth itself is incomplete. He's not wrong, but it's not the deepest level. I'm  not contradicting him, I'm just saying there's deeper understanding, deeper insight, deep consciousness.

What kind of truth does he not understand ? He often mentions that it goes deeper and deeper so I can understand from a relative perspective or his point of view that absolute truth does not exist. I can imagine what non-duality should feel like from reading descriptions it's a bit easier than imagining formlessness or even no-self. Yet, most teachers I assume say "it goes deeper and deeper", yet I can also see that through the use of psychdelics and hardcore meditation, and diligence that one is able to dive deeper, which I never hear anyone talk about besides you.

The point is when I listen to the advice from you about self-deception which I mostly utilize and I cry 10 times or so watching a video from you and it's very different from casual emotions, and more aligned with higher insights,truth etc. The same goes for sadghuru and shinzen. So, it's a bit confusing that "higher" emotions, which are not necessarily self-deceptive, and don't feel like it point to something, which I can't quite grasp. BUT! What I want to say is this.

Who do you think emobdies and understands truth to the deepest level currently on the planet ?
Who do you think emobdies and understands love to the deepest level currently on the planet ?

What pratices are worth training from what you currently perceive to reach the deepest level ? I tried most techniques I've found and the ones recommended by you (besides kriya yoga) I don't really have a preference I get results with most of them, I just need to "up" my practice, which I am shooting for in the near future. I also receive the results described, I've been mostly practicing mindfulness and do-nothing. Also a fair amount of people receive real results from shinzen techniques, most join after praticing other techniques for years and they don't sound deep and shinzens advice does not sound all to deep then, and they don't talk about jhanas, power releams, enlightenment stages or insights, but mostly some life relevant matter about practice. 

I know the thread is mostly about talent and effort + right effort, motivation, openmindeness and having a strong desire for truth and to contrast or juxtapose talent and effort literally. I don't deny that there are talented people, that past lives or I don't know if that even exist future lives matter. My point is what techniques regardless of differences generally yield tangible results ? And is it wise to train for e.g long with shinzens techniques when there are deeper truth to be realized ? Is that even possible with certain techniques ? Or is altering the physiology than the case ? 

What pratices change neurotransmitters to access deep layers of consciouness, what neurotransmitters even change or is that rather something not to be shared ? I mean I know that (5-meo dmt) and dmt can be produced naturally, yet no other neurotransmitter alike that would help with gaining insights into the nature of love, truth, illusion, power, god, or more nuanced factors, like empathy, compassion, self-deception or other negative examples. 

I notice I could read more upon buddhism to understand all of this since this is getting very nuanced. 

[Nahm]

@Leo Gura That’s a rather perfect list imo, and a ‘how’ vantage point from those / on those would be one hell of a video. 

[tedens]

On 28.07.2019 at 9:57 PM, Natasha said:

@ardacigin I had glimpses of awareness of being in my Mother's womb and when being born.

Have you experienced feelings of birth? As if the original sensory connection of touch and temperature sensation /like feeling of being doused/?

[mandyjw]

3 minutes ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

I know the thread is mostly about talent and effort + right effort, motivation, openmindeness and having a strong desire for truth and to contrast or juxtapose talent and effort literally. I don't deny that there are talented people, that past lives or I don't know if that even exist future lives matter. My point is what techniques regardless of differences generally yield tangible results ? And is it wise to train for e.g long with shinzens techniques when there are deeper truth to be realized ? Is that even possible with certain techniques ? Or is altering the physiology than the case ? 

There are no techniques that work all across the board because there is no path, you are aligning with truth/love that is in it's essence you, that is the process that we use the pointer of "the path" to describe. You always had openings to it in the past and you always were it. Because the world is scattered, if you think of a starburst, and you are a ray of light radiating from the center, the direction that one ray of light goes to connect with center is from a perspective different from the others. Some of us have to travel in completely opposite directions to reach source. Clearing the mind gives the opportunity for impulses to come to you that will lead you back to source, or rather better align you in your form existence with source. If you meditate and turn it into a "thing that you do" which often happens when we focus on how long we meditate for, it can lose its ability to connect you with source. Paradoxically, every day you meditate you "build" the ability to clear the mind and connect with source. 

Intuition is really important. Comparison with others or even yourself in the past or where you think you should be will block intuition. Intuition comes from paying attention to how you feel and if you set a rigorous schedule that you stick to no matter what and no matter how you feel you might be cutting yourself off. Having the flexibility to follow your intuition is important. But if for now the rigorous schedule feels good, then you're on the right track. 

Also a comment on past lives, if you uncover a past life or some sort of similar past connection, you can never really claim it as your past life. It is a bridge, a duality within the formless, pointing towards that you were always One. So there both are and are not past lives. 

 

[Natasha]

4 hours ago, tedens said:

Have you experienced feelings of birth? As if the original sensory connection of touch and temperature sensation /like feeling of being doused/?

Yeah like raw sensations, but not conceptual at all, like I wasn't thinking about any of that, just observing the happening. Like it was just happening and no one was doing it. Didn't feel the temperature. Though now that I can conceptualize the experience, I'd describe it as very 'soothing' while in the womb and  'struggling' when being born. 

[ValiantSalvatore]

@mandyjw You can work towards specific realizations some things work for one some don't. Not every path leads to "no path" no path is the goal I assume of non-duality being one with the manifest and unmanifest of every level form, formlesness, no self etc. 

This is what I mean with it get's nuanced. The methaphor is nice and I appreciate it, yet it does not answer my questions at all.

You can hear the sound you brain changing when I sit down to meditate I do hear that, from the very get go I was wondering this that is why I am asking which pratices help in that regard.

If I would want a pathless path I could do do-nothing and enjoy the ride, but right now right effort seems more approriate. 

I've seen some aspects of love through the use of psychdelics which I did not talk about, since it was more compassion based. So, I am curious what Leo thinks about other teachers and their realizations and techniques, so I don't work towards something which proves to be futile.


You could work if you want to to a formless path, a non-dual centric path, techniques that focus on reaching the first stage of enlightenment or techniques that focus on embodiement. So, yes there is no path and there is no specific technique most likely that works "across the board". Some could be work better across the board depending which parameters one defines, for e.g zen works across the board very well for me.

But I wanted to know something specific I don't have any problems with a big picture overview about path and paths and map territoriy aspects in the grand scheme of things.....

Yet, I am curious what is absolute since I've never realized something like this potentially slightly.
 

Edited July 31, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[Aakash]

May I ask all you mods, when you say before you were born. Do you literally mean you saying this is me. I became conscious of how I birthed this human, and infact how the whole of it works really. (Not that I didn’t know before) but I became conscious of how I created my “self-image” of person. When I believe the thought stories of such a person that was created out of thin air instantaneously by myself. 

There is no direction you don’t expand to where “you” are not doing this. Even a dna molecule has a sense of “I” anything with form does, otherwise by default it would be formless. Which of course it is. 

Anyway my question is: you agree that this is only non-dual awareness and not enlightenment right ? 

 

[Aeris]

 

I love you, so I'll give you a trick, learn EVERYTHING THE BEST YOU CAN. Expertise a field with the goal to be GODLIKE in it.

not be good, focus on being the BETTER.

try to effort so hard on achieving.

Get the truth INSIDE and transmut.

keep up brother if you want it, you'll get it,

if you want a "shortcut" try to find some pure LSD and a dark room, meditation music / pen : paper

And be ready to experience everything.

Truth has a cost though. But I think you know that.

@ValiantSalvatore

Edited July 31, 2019 by Aeris

[Natasha]

57 minutes ago, Aakash said:

my “self-image” of person

The sense of self is purely conceptual, a thought story. But one needs this dual awareness to realize their non-dual nature. I think this is currently being also discussed in a couple other threads. 

57 minutes ago, Aakash said:

my question is: you agree that this is only non-dual awareness and not enlightenment right ? 

Yes, that's why animals cannot be considered enlightened and humans can be.

[SunnyNewDay]

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

There are no techniques that work all across the board because there is no path, you are aligning with truth/love that is in it's essence you, that is the process that we use the pointer of "the path" to describe. You always had openings to it in the past and you always were it. Because the world is scattered, if you think of a starburst, and you are a ray of light radiating from the center, the direction that one ray of light goes to connect with center is from a perspective different from the others. Some of us have to travel in completely opposite directions to reach source. Clearing the mind gives the opportunity for impulses to come to you that will lead you back to source, or rather better align you in your form existence with source. If you meditate and turn it into a "thing that you do" which often happens when we focus on how long we meditate for, it can lose its ability to connect you with source. Paradoxically, every day you meditate you "build" the ability to clear the mind and connect with source.

Intuition is really important. Comparison with others or even yourself in the past or where you think you should be will block intuition. Intuition comes from paying attention to how you feel and if you set a rigorous schedule that you stick to no matter what and no matter how you feel you might be cutting yourself off. Having the flexibility to follow your intuition is important. But if for now the rigorous schedule feels good, then you're on the right track. 

Also a comment on past lives, if you uncover a past life or some sort of similar past connection, you can never really claim it as your past life. It is a bridge, a duality within the formless, pointing towards that you were always One. So there both are and are not past lives. 

 

Please expand on intuition. I've recently felt like intuition is a bunch of BS because I've felt into myself and found some wisdom this way but other times I was fed bullshit and it's hard for me to distinguish actual intuition that is on my side an self deception that wants to keep me feeling depressed and scared. Lot of confusion around intuition and what are actual good ideas given to me by it vs just thoughts, fears and ego.

[Aakash]

@Natasha yes so now my question is, the only reason non-dual awareness is true is via comparison with the thought story and one “experienced” duality, and now one is “experiencing” non-duality. 

My question is “experience” Does not exist. So what does that make you ? 

[AlwaysBeNice]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

They are not immersed in God-consciousness. They are immersed is mindless survival and selfishness, as are most humans. They are totally clueless about God even though of course they are God all along. But they don't know that, and that's what matters: knowing it.

No, not always, some animals like to play and show affection towards others, they also like to rest and meditate..

[mandyjw]

20 minutes ago, SunnyNewDay said:

Please expand on intuition. I've recently felt like intuition is a bunch of BS because I've felt into myself and found some wisdom this way but other times I was fed bullshit and it's hard for me to distinguish actual intuition that is on my side an self deception that wants to keep me feeling depressed and scared. Lot of confusion around intuition and what are actual good ideas given to me by it vs just thoughts, fears and ego.

Pay attention to how you feel as much as you can and as often as you can, and you'll be able to sort intuition from higher self from the ego's ramblings and demands. Even in what you wrote you mention how you want to avoid certain feelings, you already inherently know this. Our job is always to move in the direction of how we want to feel which we cannot do unless we carefully observe how we are feeling all the time. You get better and better at knowing how you feel and better and better at moving in the direction that makes you feel better. You feelings are already intuition itself, they are your inner guidance system. 

For example, this past winter I got an impulse to look up a book on the internet but I was busy and couldn't do it just then. I forgot what the impulse was. I vividly remember standing in my bedroom and remembering the amazing feeling of the impulse, which was still with me. I knew that I had had a really good idea and wanted to remember what it was, so after a minute I did and that time I was sure to do it. The book ended up being something entirely different from what I was expecting, it was a rabbit hole into nonduality, which was completely unexpected, because at the time I thought it was just going to be reading something fun and interesting. 

The thing about impulses is, they don't make logical sense so having a fun and playful spirit along with a deep desire for truth will go far. 

I have also experienced extremely forceful and almost terrorizing intuitions as a child before I knew how to watch my feelings. Looking back I know that if I had followed them I would have woken up, but why they came through years before I was ready to open my heart to them, I don't know.  

Compassionately working with fear in oneself is key. On the other side of fear is love. Of course, this is just another way of wording, pay attention to how you feel. Work with the fear, cultivate the love. 

 

 

[Natasha]

10 minutes ago, Aakash said:

@Natasha yes so now my question is, the only reason non-dual awareness is true is via comparison with the thought story and one “experienced” duality, and now one is “experiencing” non-duality. 

My question is “experience” Does not exist. So what does that make you ? 

Experience is God's means to its own end. The Self creating a self to experience IT-self haha

[Aakash]

@Natasha LOOL! that was finely worded. In other words, just let the fire burn 

Then retrack your way back to the fire, to master how to light a fire 

 

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Aeris I tried LSD 20+ times, I've seen beyond. But not enough I only licked the tail of the ox, and enlightenment is a many facetted jewel. The stuff Leo and other memebers talk about is far away, I appreciate your words.

The point is I've had enough glimpses but I want something radical. So, yes pratice makes perfect I love to perform actually, so I'll shot for a betterment of my practice. No-self should be possible within a year permanent. But this could also be far-fetched, I appreciate what Leo says and implement the advice as well as I can. Now is the perfect time, I just took some time of to enjoy myself and now I have the goals that I want in mind a plan etc. And even a couple of people to talk to. I want to get my hands on 5-MeO to truley understand what Leo is teaching, I am not talented to understand it naturally in an instant I would need to pratice, which is what I am doing, yet I would also not deny inclinations, but I am certainly not on the talented scale of things. I've also never meet a person in real life who get's enlightenment experiences in two days or so, I had som glimpses at the beginning but I was to unconscious to hold on to it, some where just precursors to kriya experiences. 

I've also gained some knowledge around 5th, 6th, 4th dimension and stuff like this online, but I currently treat it just as a framework. 

I am still studying all of this, but not thoroughly enoug yet.



 

[Aeris]

8 minutes ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

@Aeris I tried LSD 20+ times, I've seen beyond. But not enough I only licked the tail of the ox, and enlightenment is a many facetted jewel. The stuff Leo and other memebers talk about is far away, I appreciate your words.

The point is I've had enough glimpses but I want something radical. So, yes pratice makes perfect I love to perform actually, so I'll shot for a betterment of my practice. No-self should be possible within a year permanent. But this could also be far-fetched, I appreciate what Leo says and implement the advice as well as I can. Now is the perfect time, I just took some time of to enjoy myself and now I have the goals that I want in mind a plan etc. And even a couple of people to talk to. I want to get my hands on 5-MeO to truley understand what Leo is teaching, I am not talented to understand it naturally in an instant I would need to pratice, which is what I am doing, yet I would also not deny inclinations, but I am certainly not on the talented scale of things. I've also never meet a person in real life who get's enlightenment experiences in two days or so, I had som glimpses at the beginning but I was to unconscious to hold on to it, some where just precursors to kriya experiences. 

I've also gained some knowledge around 5th, 6th, 4th dimension and stuff like this online, but I currently treat it just as a framework. 

I am still studying all of this, but not thoroughly enoug yet.



 

and sorry if I sound arrogant, I m direct, I don't really know you neither your own path.

just a blink, an instinct that some people need to rewire on the path of mastery.

Because having glimpse of the ox, it is not only "solvable" with psychedelics.

I only did LSD and mushroom for 2 weeks straights ( micro, macro, big ) in my room, alone, music & pen, self philosophy, with enlightment as a goal.

I think it help "stacking" your precedent "dual work".

dual work is not to neglect at all neither, some should remember to integrate the "better" of the "orange" stage, that is "hard work, pay off"
 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Aeris

[Truthority]

At the end of the day we can only evaluate the quality of each other’s poetry. 

The path itself is the great equalizer. Everything else is just an endless pissing contest.

Drugs can help you gave a good time. They are great for inspiration. Nothing wrong with that.

But they are not the real thing.

The Boredom Wall of Death awaits.

It's that gate where your ego identifications and attachments are no longer permitted to enter past this point. 

You know what's waiting and what's coming. 

All words and conversations and mind games are a convenient way to avoid the inevitable.