Why Talent Is Overrated in Spirituality (Shinzen Young Case Study)

[Lynnel]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Shinzen Young proves my point. I do not consider him to have reached the deepest levels of consciousness, and he's been at it for 40 years.

Sure, he has gotten a lot better. But he does not understand the deepest mechanics of God. And he probably never will without better neurotransmitters.

But what would happen if he used psychedelics ?

Or do you think that psychedelics also only help you with achieving your potential and do not expand it beyond what would be possible "naturaly" without them ?

Meaning then that people having amazing psychedelic experiences are quite gifted to begin with, giving a whole new meaning to the famous quote of "psychedelics don't work on stupid people".

[Aakash]

The likely order if you take siddhis as infinite in consciousness Is that whatever siddhis there are develop in range, rather than depth. Siddhis as we know them will not go past simple actions most likely. Who knows, its a range is pretty unknown stage. I think the reason for this is because as humans we have poor imagination. Like if i said to imagine an apple in front of you right now. 

To make such a thing possible, you would have to sit still. Astral project a 3d version of your body out, then imagine you walking to the apple and picking it up, Since we are so stuck to the laws of physics. You would have to recreate the exact laws to pick up that apple. it will need to feel heavy when you pick it up and dense. Then when you take a bite into it, you will have to imagine your teeth biting into it and the taste. This is difficult to produce through pure imagination. This is for an apple, its easily a scenario you've been through many times. Lets say you tried to imagine yourself in another country. You can imagine how impossible that is. Siddhis are very limited. However, i think the general rule of thumb is the deeper your conscious awareness the wider the range of siddhis and the deeper your non-dual awareness the deeper the siddhi. You can try these exercises for yourself. imagine anything you want, to only clause is, it has to be so realistically that you self-deceive yourself into believing its true. See with me, i have nobody to double confirm with. So you have no choice but to extensively trust yourself. There can be no doubt. doubt itself is erased because you understand absolute infinity is absolutely infinite. 

The closest i got, was i was waving my hands following an infinity sign motion and i heavily fixated on creating another pair of hands infront of me, trying to recreate my own direct experience itself. Then i managed slightly absorb into the perspective of the created hands. and i started moving them. and i didn't intentionally do it, but the movement of my actual hands, the movement with the air, the weight allowed me to actually move those hands and i disconnected from my own direct experience, into the other direct experience. But it only lasted like 10 seconds, humans also have concentration issues aswell. You have to feel motivated and excited to actually give it a go. 

The restrictions of human body is immense, but its like you have to somehow create a creative play area within your direct experience by leaving physical reality. So probably full siddhis would look like levitating 10 cm off the ground. Where as our imagination would think its possible to fly. its impossible, you need jesus level consciousness. Whatever he is, he can not be classified as stage teal. I actually think it would be somewhere after transcending the SD model 3 -4 stages over, so that would be like 18 stages beyond stage teal. this is a guesstimate, the probability of this being a true statement is like 1% -2%. You see i have a theory that stage dark (transcendence of stage turquoise) is two people joining their consciousness together into one consciousness unit, in which they're allowed more creative power, maybe because they have two different levels of infinite love, infinite creativity, infinite intelligence, what ever infinite they kind of specialise in. So its possible that consciousness masked itself as jesus over the layer of reality we were in and was everything so deeply, he moved oceans. i'm just not sure how many times you would have to transcend stage turquoise many times over. i would put the probability of this at 10-20% and the probability of stage darkness being that probably anywhere between 0%-15%. 

Also connecting to collective consciousness is different siddhi itself, i feel teal is about being creative and using god's infinite creative in any way you can eliminate your direct experience and create a creative world, Like in games where you have creative mode. 

This is currently all my knowledge about stage teal. 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Aakash

[Joseph Maynor]

@Aakash I’d love to see your model of Teal.

[Aakash]

@Joseph Maynor I don't think its possible  for me to model it, i was actually surprised how well leo modelled it in his video. I wouldn't be able to give an explanation like that. The reason is because he's a teacher and has modelled all his insights. Mines are now where near communicable. I can't even tell people in various metaphors about truth. I really struggle with that so i just ditched it. 

No two siddhis are the same, so there's no way to model an indefinite basis for how to access different siddhis. They would each have their own methods and capabilities of GOD-LIKE expressions. So imagination is not from a human perspective, but you as god, doing godly things 

And this is the reason why this path is equally a highest truth as enlightenment. You are doing the only thing you can do- becoming god

Edited July 28, 2019 by Aakash

[Joseph Maynor]

1 minute ago, Aakash said:

@Joseph Maynor I don't think its possible  for me to model it, i was actually surprised how well leo modelled it in his video. I wouldn't be able to give an explanation like that. The reason is because he's a teacher and has modelled all his insights. Mines are now where near communicable. I can't even tell people in various metaphors about truth. I really struggle with that so i just ditched it. 

But if you hit Yellow you should know how to model.

[Aakash]

@Joseph Maynor Yeah the best model is this 

Infinite creativity 

infinite imagination 

infinite intelligence 

infinite power 

infinite will 

infinite non duality 

infinite time 

infinite concentration 

infinite possibilties 

infinite love 

infinite distinctions which become real, if you make them real. 

etc.. etc.. 

Now go do something with all of them together, that's the best model someone could probably produce 

You would have to model each siddhi individual and each of us will have different ones. 

[AlwaysBeNice]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Clearly a kangaroo is not going to fathom the depths of God no matter how much training. Why? Because of its physiological limits. It is too limited. Humans are better equipped. But still basically not good enough to fathom all of consciousness without augmentation. Humans lie all across the spectrum of consciousness. Some of us are totally retarded while others are Buddhas. This is certainly not explainable by lack of training, although training is often necessary to actualize our full potential. But what your full potential is, is highly constrained by physiology.

Also, I am speaking about a lot more here than enlightenment. Consciousness is not merely about enlightenment. There is a width as well as a depth to it. Very few people explored the full width or depth alone, let alone both at once. So just saying, "But Leo, person X is enlightened" doesn't mean much. That is not a nuanced enough understanding of the spiritual terrain.

You want to speak on behalf of the kangaroo? I've had some enlightenment experiences that felt like they were related to animal consciousness and it was.. really high, for lack of a better term.

[Leo Gura]

@AlwaysBeNice I feel pretty confident that a kangaroo is ignorant of metaphysics. If you have evidence to the contrary, please share.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Lynnel said:

But what would happen if he used psychedelics ?

He would likely discover new realms, depths, and aspects of consciousness.

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Or do you think that psychedelics also only help you with achieving your potential and do not expand it beyond what would be possible "naturaly" without them ?

They certainly take you beyond what would be natural for most humans. Of course even then there are still limits to what the body/mind can handle. Even the strongest psychedelic does not totally free you of human form.

Some humans are like naturally high all the time because their brain chemistry is that way. This is quite rare, but still, not that rare. You can find such people.

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Meaning then that people having amazing psychedelic experiences are quite gifted to begin with, giving a whole new meaning to the famous quote of "psychedelics don't work on stupid people".

They probably are somewhat gifted. But also, the psychedelic catalyses that by 100x-1000x. Which would be hard to do any other way.

A psychedelic is similar to Jesus spending 40 days in the desert with no food or the Buddha sitting under the tree for 2 weeks straight without moving. Only it happens much faster and easier, not requiring so much suffering.

[electroBeam]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Just the decision to give up his kingdom and become a full time monk was already an extraordinary act which could only have been made by a spiritually advanced person.

A deep insight which you're overlooking is the strong effects of the environment on one's consciousness.

I can only speak for myself because 1) I know myself 100% truthfully(and its not hearsay) and 2) I haven't read no where near sufficiently to even judge hearsay at the levels you are able to.

 

The environment plays just as strong, if not stronger role on how enlightened you will be. Be careful not to misunderstand me, I'm not supporting the 'talent is not born its made, 10000 hours' argument, I'm saying that we even in duality we are strongly tied to our environment. No matter how individualistic you are, the environment determines(subconscious/unconsciously) the actions you choose to do and the success that comes with it.

If you try and enlighten yourself inside a ghetto, even if you're the buddha you will not be able to do it. If you try to enlighten yourself in an ashram, no matter how dull you are, the chances of success increases significantly. This is because you become a cell, a part of the ashram/ghetto system, and the system's properties get meshed into your individualistic properties. Of course, you may still come across as an outlier, you may still be totally different to the people in the ghetto/ashram depending on your tendencies, all I'm saying is the place you put yourself has massive consequences on your behaviour. 

 

Have you taken this into account when looking at spiritual people? Would the buddha ace yoga if he tried to inside a ghetto? Would shinzen young not be able to access higher levels of consciousness if he was in the presence of the living gautama buddha? Don't fool yourself into thinking these people are individualistic entities separate from their environment, their environment moves their being massively.

You need to distinguish talent from environment if you wish to explain the phenomena you're trying to explain properly. 

 

I did an experiment with myself. I watched your videos and talked on the forum for 6 months. I then didn't for 6 months. My personality and talents changed dramatically between the 2 periods. When I went and immersed myself with Sadhguru's community, my talents and personality changed massively again. This really showed me the power of the environment on talent. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by electroBeam

[Leo Gura]

@electroBeam Of course environment is very important. Genetics/physiology + environment + training/effort = all important

The most successful people do well in all 3 categories.

[lmfao]

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 I have met and talked with people who access crazy superhuman levels of consciously totally effortlessly without training. And these people can go deeper than those who practice for 40 years......There are people who access realms of consciousness with zero training which other people cannot access with 40 years of professional training

 

My experiments with psychedelics back this up. There are levels of consciousness so radical that you will never access them if you lack the proper neurotransmitters...........I am talking about physiological brain differences and neurotransmitter differences which give people access to different realms of reality.

 @Leo Gura Which people, and what neurotransmitter/brain differences do you believe to be significant?

Or are you making the assertion that there are brain/neurotransmitter differences without specifics due to the observation you've made that talent exists in this regard? 

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The people who get enlightened using those techniuques are the ones who are already highly predisposed to it. You must be highly predisposed already just to do the practices seriously. Don't discount that.

Aren't the people who do the practices seriously just conscientious? Or does the word "serious" here refer to their ability to actually dive deep into the practice? 

Edited July 29, 2019 by lmfao
Second sentence in the above post was only just added.

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, lmfao said:

 @Leo Gura Which people, and what neurotransmitter/brain differences do you believe to be significant?

Spiritually gifted folk. You can meet them in various spiritual circles. Healers, psychics, masters, yogis, sages, prodigies, shamans, witches, channelers, saints, etc.

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Aren't the people who do the practices seriously just conscientious? Or does the word "serious" here refer to their ability to actually dive deep into the practice? 

It's a combination of factors: diligence, discipline, willpower, passion, focus ability, existential curiosity, openmindedness, baseline level of consciousness, appropriate personality type, and more.

Notice, it's much easier to stick with a technique when is produces immediate significant results. Some people sit down to meditate and start having mystical experiences within days or weeks. This of course makes it much easier to stick with the habit compared to a person who meditates for 3 years and doesn't have a single mystical experience.

I've met people who've sat down for one weekend, did 2 days of self-inquiry and awakened. That's totally unusual results. The average person can self-inquiry for 5 years and still not awaken.

And it has to be this way. Otherwise half the people on the planet would be awake, but less than 0.0001% are. So you need some explanation for why that is. The explanation cannot just be that they're lazy or uninformed.

[electroBeam]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@electroBeam Of course environment is very important. Genetics/physiology + environment + training/effort = all important

The most successful people do well in all 3 categories.

In a way, your personality is a collection of all of the experiences you've had, and indoctrination your society has told you and you've believed. Its not some inherent soul that's unique to you - this is false. 

The buddha, as an entity, is fundamentally a collection of life experiences and indoctrination by society. You can think of the Buddha as a book shelf full of books which describe the experiences and indoctrination from society. 

Now from this perspective, does it really make sense to assume that the Buddha was enlightened because he as an entity is special? How important are those books on his book shelf?

Of course there are genetic components involved, but I find it really hard to be convinced that genetics plays a big role in success of the person. The majority of spiritual success is determined by how high quality the software is in your head. How loose is that software? How easily does it change? How easily does it keep you from being trapped? How many issues are within that software? How dysfunctional is it? These are huge huge factors when considering enlightenment. 

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

does it really make sense to assume that the Buddha was enlightened because he as an entity is special

If you think the Buddha was a just your average guy off the street, you're really misdiagnosing how spirituality works.

It takes an exceptional person to do what the Buddha did. What that means exactly is a mystery, but something special and extraordinary is happening on the inside.

Past lives might be a better explanation. Whatever the explanation, it's not merely lack of effort or training.

I want you to start noticing that people's brains and minds work is very different ways. We are not all the same. Some people think very differently by their natural constitution. Some constitutions are more suitable to spiritual work than others. Just observe people carefully and you'll notice the differences in how they think and see the world. It's quite stark and obvious. People do not see the world in the same way. It would be better to say: people live in different realities with some overlap.

[lmfao]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Notice, it's much easier to stick with a technique when is produces immediate significant results. Some people sit down to meditate and start having mystical experiences within days or weeks. This of course makes it much easier to stick with the habit compared to a person who meditates for 3 years and doesn't have a single mystical experience.

Wow, this is so true. 

I suppose I've had an aversion to the idea that psychedelics are needed to reach the highest degrees of consciousness, but I suppose that is just me making the assumption that there are no shortcuts to spirituality. There is no reason to assume that there are no short cuts in this process. Just because everything is perfect doesn't mean reality owes it to me to make it easy that I become aware of its perfection. In fact, biblical descriptions of hell could be real and it'd still be loving and perfect. 

For now I'll continue sticking to something analogous to the "American Dream", that with enough practice and diligence I'll get my goals. 

[TheAvatarState]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

want you to start noticing that people's brains and minds work is very different ways. We are not all the same. Some people think very differently by their natural constitution. Some constitutions are more suitable to spiritual work than others. Just observe people carefully and you'll notice the differences in how they think and see the world. It's quite stark and obvious.

Yes, but couldn't this be fully explained by differences in development during upbringing? For instance, a single child could have a lot more alone time, possibly leading to more introspection and differences in attitudes towards other people. There's so many unique factors outside a child's control that it could totally explain all the varieties of thinking types. This isn't to say I'm ruling out past lives, but I can't say that I've observed anything that would suggest such a theory. Perhaps I'm missing something Leo?

[Forestluv]

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Notice, it's much easier to stick with a technique when is produces immediate significant results. Some people sit down to meditate and start having mystical experiences within days or weeks. This of course makes it much easier to stick with the habit compared to a person who meditates for 3 years and doesn't have a single mystical experience.

I’m imagining moderately talented people who are right under the threshold of a mystical experience / revelation. Perhaps they have mediated a few months and have caught a few mystical glimpses that didn’t seem to stick. I wonder if microdosing psychedelics could boost them up to the highly talented group getting mystical experiences weekly. My sense is that there is a decent sized population of people that might resonate well with micro/mini doses. They might have a strong aversion to regular doses, yet be open to a min-dose, especially as it becomes more accepted and mainstream.

[Leo Gura]

34 minutes ago, TheAvatarState said:

Yes, but couldn't this be fully explained by differences in development during upbringing? For instance, a single child could have a lot more alone time, possibly leading to more introspection and differences in attitudes towards other people.

No, it can't.

Siblings are often raised in similar environments by similar parents and teachers yet they can come out very differently.

One of the greatest unsolved mysteries of developmental psychology and spirituality is why some children and young adults advance through the stages so much faster than others. Practice and environment are certainly factors, but not the most important factor.

Past lives are a good explanation here.

Most people do not even care about metaphysics. Just to care about metaphysics already requires a certain type of mind/personality. I have cared about metaphysics from the very beginning. Without that, I would be just some regular dude flipping burgers at McDonalds. I'm not a gifted meditator but my metaphysical curiosity is through the roof and came built into my brain from birth. I did nothing to deserve it. At least in this life. Maybe I did something in a past life to earn it. I dunno. Or maybe I just won the genetic lottery. Out of 7 billion humans, surely some will be born will exceptional metaphysical curiosity. Humans are not minted in a factory like widgets. We have unique gifts.

It's important that we be honest and acknowledge any gifts we may have. We also have unique weaknesses.

[electroBeam]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Past lives are a good explanation here.

Isn't past lives environmental factors - but over lifetimes haha?

If the differences is explained through past lives, then the individual still put in heaps of effort and time, just in his past life.