Why Talent Is Overrated in Spirituality (Shinzen Young Case Study)

[ardacigin]

Just now, Natasha said:

@ardacigin I had glimpses of awareness of being in my Mother's womb and when being born. None of that was conceptual, just purely observational. I remember while in the womb looking and like seeing through water at a fleshy wall in front of me. While being born moving through the super tight dark channel, getting stuck, struggling to breathe, and finally the blinding light and first deep gasps of air and crying. The experience was intense and traumatic to a degree. My Mom later told me she had long hard labor. Also, when I was still an infant I have vivid memories of the things and faces that surrounded me. When I look at the pictures where I was just a few days, weeks, months old, I can recognize those people and objects. 

This might sound strange to some, but perhaps it's a spiritual talent that I was born with? 

Some people definitely have these sort of spiritual experiences. And it can be an indication. But this talent business has to do more with your ability to attain samadhi and spiritual insights with relative ease. Is your mind more attuned to concentrated states? How much practice do you have to do to get to a no-mind state? Have you had insight experiences in meditation?

These are better questions to ask to figure out how spiritually talented you are. Unless there is a radical difference compared to an average meditator with these metrics, you don't have a significant talent advantage. Just keep doing the practices like everyone else and you'll get there  

[Natasha]

1 minute ago, ardacigin said:

Some people definitely have these sort of spiritual experiences. And it can be an indication. But this talent business has to do more with your ability to attain samadhi and spiritual insights with relative ease. Is your mind more attuned to concentrated states? How much practice do you have to do to get to a no-mind state? Have you had insight experiences in meditation?

These are better questions to ask to figure out how spiritually talented you are. Unless there is a radical difference compared to an average meditator with these metrics, you don't have a significant talent advantage. Just keep doing the practices like everyone else and you'll get there  

I got Self-realized a few years ago without much meditation, while doing self-inquiry one day and the shift just happened 

[ardacigin]

Just now, Natasha said:

I got Self-realized a few years ago without much meditation, while doing self-inquiry one day and the shift just happened 

The permanent deal, right? In that case, that may be an indication. You were still using a technique. Especially self enquiry which is a fairly successful insight practice. But the fact that you did it quickly can definitely be the result of spiritual talent. How was your level of concentration prior to awakening? How did it change afterwards?

[mandyjw]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The more I study and explore spirituality, the more convinced I am that spiritual talent plays a bigger and bigger role. I have met and talked with people who access crazy superhuman levels of consciously totally effortlessly without training. And these people can go deeper than those who practice for 40 years.

It's quite unfair and outrageous. This is like a dirty giant secret of spirituality and meditation which no one tells you about because they want to believe we are all equal.

Well, the truth is, we are nowhere close to equal.

My experiments with psychedelics back this up. Therr are levels of consciousness so radical that you will never access them if you lack the proper neurotransmitters.

Beginner's luck is a real thing, because faith and belief are everything. The beginner hasn't been told how hard he has to work and how long he has to wait in order to be rewarded so he doesn't believe that it will take a lot of work and a long time. Faith in a technique, faith in a substance, faith in a sacred place, faith in oneself, faith in God, faith in destiny, it's all the same faith. 

 

[Shadowraix]

I don't think talent is so black and white. Not only does it affect your baseline but also the rate. And they aren't necessarily constrained to each other. Combine this with how much effort someone puts into increasing their consciousness, you can see a dynamic that results in a variety of outputs. 

[Natasha]

1 minute ago, ardacigin said:

The permanent deal, right? In that case, that may be an indication. You were still using a technique. Especially self enquiry which is a fairly successful insight practice. But the fact that you did it quickly can definitely be the result of spiritual talent. How was your level of concentration prior to awakening? How did it change afterwards?

Yes was permanent. I can't even say I was seeking per se, just wanted to get to the bottom of something and was open to whatever it takes. 

Prior to the shift I was naturally immersed into and absorbing teachings from Sadhguru, Eckhart, Leo, Tony Parsons, and Lisa Cairns for a few months. I was razor-focused and isolated from any distraction (got rid of the TV cable, cell-phone, no social media, etc). When the 'seeker' collapsed, the search was over. 

 

[Space]

38 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

Without ANY training? Stream entry is possible and happens people occasionally without any training. But superhuman levels of consciousness without any training doesn't sound plausible to me. I wonder who these people are. What are their names?  

 

Jan Essman is a fairly good example. He was basically born enlightened. Started having profound mystical experiences when he was a teenager or something. I think he has done a fair bit of actual practise but there's no doubt his level of consciousness is largely down to spiritual talent, brain physiology etc.

[Leo Gura]

33 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Beginner's luck is a real thing, because faith and belief are everything. The beginner hasn't been told how hard he has to work and how long he has to wait in order to be rewarded so he doesn't believe that it will take a lot of work and a long time.

What I'm talking about goes way beyond beginners luck.

I am talking about physiological brain differences and neurotransmitter differences which give people access to different realms of reality.

Training is a thin vineer on top of this fundamental foundation.

[Enlightenment]

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The more I study and explore spirituality, the more convinced I am that spiritual talent plays a bigger and bigger role. I have met and talked with people who access crazy superhuman levels of consciously totally effortlessly without training. And these people can go deeper than those who practice for 40 years.

Because many people 40+ years ago haven't had proper instructions on how to meditate properly like The Mind Illuminated. People often exaggerate how profound/superhuman levels they have reached, I don't believe anybody can reach without training levels that an average person can reach within 2 years of hard work. That's also why I like some objective measurements like can you sit in effortless concentration for 1h, 2h, 3h? or how much 5-MeO you can take and sit still... 

Genetics obviously plays a significant role but the longer I meditate the more I realize how important it is to learn how to meditate properly on an intuitive level. I mean it may take you 4 years to get to effortless concentration but once you've learned how to unify your mind, you will do it much much faster the second time - with the same genetics 

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

Because many people 40+ years ago haven't had proper instructions on how to meditate properly like The Mind Illuminated. People often exaggerate how profound/superhuman levels they have reached

No, that's not enough to explain it.

There are people who access realms of consciousness with zero training which other people cannot access with 40 years of professional training.

[Enlightenment]

5 minutes ago, Space said:

Jan Essman is a fairly good example. He was basically born enlightened.

He was not enlightened. He was meditating 6h every day for a long time. Even he stated that you have to meditate it's very important

[How to be wise]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

What I'm talking about goes way beyond beginners luck.

I am talking about physiological brain differences and neurotransmitter differences which give people assess to different realms of reality.

It’s interesting that the brain actually affects the body quite radically. Byron Katie said that shortly after her experience, there was a period of 27 days where she never ate or drank anything. She said it was because of her ‘radical state of mind.’ 

[mandyjw]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What I'm talking about goes way beyond beginners luck.

I am talking about physiological brain differences and neurotransmitter differences.

 

Different siddhis are given to certain people and not others, still within the story of duality. They are given based on what collective consciousness wants to come through into the story, into form, based on which direction it is moving or what it is evolving into. So we are dreaming that we are awakening, and in that dream we will acquire certain talents to help consciousness along it's path to awakening. The community, the one, the coming together of these talents, is how we awaken Earth.

Comparison of abilities or how hard won they were is focusing on what is not desired, when we could be aligned with God/earth's/collective consciousness' desire. 

I mean, I could drive up a mountain to see the view from the top or hike to the top but hiking is a lot more satisfying to me. Other people would call me an idiot and just drive to the top. But I want sore muscles and a dopamine high or I won't enjoy the view as much. It's a choice. 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2019 by mandyjw

[Space]

Just now, Enlightenment said:

He was not enlightened. He was meditating 6h every day for a long time. Even he stated that you have to meditate it's very important

He's enlightened as fuck dude. I've spoken with him face to face and he gives legit shakipat transmissions. Must be some next level magician if he's just faking it. Can't know for sure though, I suppose. As far as I remember, he was only meditating for 6h a day for a short period of time, well after he was enlightened. How do you think he could sit motionless for 6 hours without getting up? Yea of course he's gonna say that meditation is important.

[ardacigin]

24 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Training is a thin vineer on top of this fundamental foundation.

But Leo, I don't understand why you make such a statement. So many people get seriously enlightened using techniques and training methods. Even @Natasha who seems to have spiritual talent had done it using self enquiry. Without any practice, spiritual talent may or may not pan out. And relying on it and throwing in the towel is not a smart move.

How can training be 'thin vineer'? That is too much of an extreme statement when clearly there is a difference between meditators and non-meditators. Very rarely can someone get seriously enlightened (beyond stream entry) without any practice. Some amount of training is essential even in spiritually talented individuals.

And again, just refer back to Shinzen's childhood. I don't see an inkling of potential talent there. And look where practice got him now. How can you view training as not essential?

Edited July 28, 2019 by ardacigin

[mandyjw]

3 hours ago, Preetom said:

You tell me Mandy 

WE CATCH THE WHITE WHALE!!! 

We're stuck in a story that we are both the author of and a character in. Life is a lucid dream. You can steer yourself to where you want to go but there are still surprises along the way, because otherwise it wouldn't be any fun at all. 

Fun. We exist for our own entertainment. Are you having fun yet?  Life can't be any fun if you think it's real and think it's happening to you instead of for you and your character development. Doesn't that make you want to give Voldemort a big hug for making Harry Potter possible? 

Also the things people told us are fun aren't really much fun. So that's a necessary realization too. 

 

[Enlightenment]

@Space I'm saying he was not enlightened since birth. He still has to meditate in order to maintain this his state. He actually calls classic enlightenment self-realization and says it's a dull void disidentification from the ego and then as he meditated (following the breath btw) for 6h in one sit, he got to what he calls enlightenment (it's basically Samatha) but this second part is not permanent, it has to be maintained through practice. Self-realization is persistent or even permanent Samatha with its lovely, joyful, energetic feeling is not 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Enlightenment

[moon777light]

@Enlightened Yogananda is probably the best example of being born with spiritual gifts

 

its true definitley, but i dont think its a measure of how successful youll be in your spiritual path, take the two most welll-known enlightened as fuck people. Jesus and Buddha. Jesus was born with a spiritual talent from his very birth, Buddha was materialistic prince until he left the palace. But Buddha still got enlightened to crazy crazy levels of consciousness

[ardacigin]

34 minutes ago, Natasha said:

Yes was permanent. I can't even say I was seeking per se, just wanted to get to the bottom of something and was open to whatever it takes. 

Prior to the shift I was naturally immersed into and absorbing teachings from Sadhguru, Eckhart, Leo, Tony Parsons, and Lisa Cairns for a few months. I was razor-focused and isolated from any distraction (got rid of the TV cable, cell-phone, no social media, etc). When the 'seeker' collapsed, the search was over. 

 

How is your relationship to pain and suffering? Really interested in your insights. How do you intuitively react when you do a long meditation sit where pain is really getting noticeable in your legs? 

Also, would you describe stream-entry as 'self-boundaries' disappearing forever? No longer identifying your sense of self as where your skin ends and the 'outer' world starts? 

 

[Sempiternity]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I am talking about physiological brain differences and neurotransmitter differences which give people access to different realms of reality.

This seems to me like your contradicting your own teachings. If "Brains Do Not Exist", why are you pushing that brain differences and neurotransmitters are essential to Spirituality?