Are You TOO Hard on Yourself

[Angelo John Gage]

Last weekend I had a bad day, got into a fight with my wife so I left the house to chill with my buddy. We played some video games and cooked dinner and starting chatting about the issues I was dealing with. His advice, coming from similar situations and being a similar person, literally clicked and changed my life. I made a video about it here. It helped me, so I hope it helps you.

 

[SFRL]

@Angelo John Gage good video!

[Forestluv]

@Angelo John Gage Wow, such a great video on the psychological dynamics of self abuse. I think this has a lot of practical value and is a very common dynamic in society. 

I like how you described it as self punishment. I think it can be intensified in people surrounded with highly judgemental/critical/punishing people in their lives. Yet as you indicate, we need to recognize it, take responsibility and develop beyond it.

At one point in my life, I realized “If I was as abusive to others as I am to myself, I would be locked up in jail right now”. 

Another insight: it is really hard to be kind to others when one is abusive to themself. Sometimes when I see people being mean to others, I can feel that they are mean to themself. From a nondual perspective, there is no difference between being mean to oneself and being mean to another. 

[Angelo John Gage]

@SFRL thank you

@Serotoninluv yes, the amount of pain I caused myself, there is no way I could actually fully enjoy life in those mind states. I still have work to do but this was certainly a huge revelation.  

[kieranperez]

This is just a response because for one, this is one of my biggest issues as I think this might bring more awareness to these issues that many people on the forum seem to not understand (not saying you don’t):

I listened to your video and although the understanding is there intellectually, more often than not, people can’t just “let it go”. Some people can. A LOT of people can’t. You can’t just tell someone whose had a lot of trauma in there life that what they need to do is “just breathe” or “let it go” or “learn to allow yourself to love yourself”. There’s the assumption there that they actually think they can just do that. That they already have a healthy enough ego to give love to themselves. That they can just let it go. A lot of people who are real hardcore dysfunctional perfectionists, myself being in that clan, NEED an external support system to help them because they only reason they have that perfectionism in the first place is because they have a tarnished capacity to be able to love themselves and let go of whatever it is they’re attached to. 

Even to become more aware of one’s deep ego dynamics isn’t enough. This often takes real work with a support system of some kind. Saying “let it go” or whatever, sure it sounds good, but it’s misleading. 

I don’t want to sound like I’m bashing anything but as someone whose been told stuff like this for many years (more than a decade) and have it go nowhere because it’s based off certain assumptions and has lead to actually more suffering, I feel it is worth mentioning. Congrats on your own personal progress though. 

[Forestluv]

@Angelo John Gage @kieranperez

I think it’s a tricky subject with various degrees. 

In one sense there can be a sudden awakening of “hey, I’m creating my own reality and I don’t need to beat myself up anymore”. A deep clear awakening can release a lot.  In another sense, there can be deeply ingrained programming and even after realizing the irrational nature of the thoughts, the thought impulses still arise. Realizing and then letting go of these intrusive thoughts can be frustrating and tiresome. After a while, they lesson for me . . Yet my father’s critical voice lived rent-free in my head for many years  in spite of all the eviction notices I sent. . . 

 

[Angelo John Gage]

@kieranperez I feel you bro. It took my friend 10 YEARS to "let go" of his problems. I myself have been suffering for a good 7 ever since I got out of the marines; I'm just now seeing "the light" so to speak, and I am fully aware that this doesn't mean all will be fine and dandy either.

But just to reiterate, letting go doesn't mean you forget it ever happened its like it was like for the LULZ, it is saying OK, this shit happened, by why stab myself in the eyes for it ON TOP OF IT. SO you can let go of the self inflicted pain. The problem itself could still cause you suffering, but then you're only dealing with ONE punisher rather than two. 

Edited July 23, 2019 by Angelo John Gage

[Commodent]

@kieranperez I think the reason why the advice of letting go rarely works is because it largely has become a cliché and people don't know what it really means. It's just an idea. How exactly does one let go? How do you love yourself? Well, nobody tells you that, so the advice is usually pretty worthless.

In my view self-love is simply talking patiently and compassionately to yourself like you would to a small child or loved one. You become your own support system so to speak. Anyone can do that, just like anyone has the capacity to talk patiently and compassionately to a child. It can take some time to cultivate the habit, though.

I wouldn't totally abolish the notion of letting go either. I remember when I first heard of it I thought it meant pushing away emotions, and I did exactly that in a rather neurotic way. It caused me a lot of harm, so for a long time I had a distaste for it. But that's not really it. You can acknowledge all of your emotions and every single part of you, and still let go. You see, most of our deep problems are not really problems and they're completely self-constructed. They're self-fulfilling prophecies and by focusing on it you're only making the problem stronger.

This goes well along with our understanding of neurology. By focusing on the problem you are strengthening the neural pathways associated to it. "Cells that fire together wire together." So you can litterally think yourself mentally ill. So what do you do? You ignore the problem and after a couple of weeks or months you quite litterally forget the problem. You need to trust that the solution does not lie in thinking about the problem, but rather by not thinking about it. It's very counter-intuitive.

[Joseph Maynor]

Killer video!  Important message.  Perfectionism is much a big block.  I'm a perfectionist by nature too.  I had to learn how to love partial credit.  It's all about that partial credit.  Life is about partial credit more than it is about perfectionism.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[kieranperez]

@Commodent again, I’m saying the whole “let it go” notions works for some. I’m not saying that’s not solid advice for people. It definitely is... for some. I’m not suggesting we swing our pendulum. What I’m trying to point out is that that advice is often extremely discouraging for the one whose being given that advice. They discount and presume that positive self talk and just applying self love and feeling good solves those issues. 

To use myself as the example, I’m a hardcore perfectionist. My entire relationship towards any endeavor I even have interest in is I have to reach the absolute pinnacle. When I was a runner, if I didn’t run under 4:10 for the mile I don’t see what’s so special. If I wasn’t some professional runner, I’m really just wasting my time. It’s not even out of a sense of comparing myself to other people. It’s comparison to my own ideals. When I try to practice self love and literally can’t because I feel like such a loser and an incompetent failure that it taints any sort of love I bring up due to certain vow made as far back as when I was 4 years old. Positive self talk does not solve that 99.999% of the time. Just feeling good doesn’t solve deep shadows and deep wounds. It takes really vulnerability, honesty, openness to one’s feelings, etc. The advice of just applying love to people who have similar situations is based on the assumption that a person can just do that. Even if you have a breakthrough on psychedelics and reach radical states of healing... you still come back down. 

The point I was trying to make is merely just the POV from the other side of how frustrating that advice can be. It’s part of why i get frustrsted with talk on developmental psychology from people like Wilber and even Leo. Not that it has anything to do with them but because on the receiving end it’s ljke “what do I do with this though?!” When you feel truly powerless and stuck in your life for sometimes for very legitimate reasons (psychological) and you don’t have help and you’re reading from someone who just wants to talk about this stuff but doesn’t give any tips or detailed advice about how to utilize these things it can feel very defeating. 

Again though, @anglo John gage, happy to see you’re doing better  

[Angelo John Gage]

@Joseph Maynor thanks joe 

@Commodent correct, this is also referred to neuroplasticity.

@kieranperez thanks. I feel that because you are even on the path and are aware of your issues, that it is only a matter of time until something clicks with you that will change your perspective about yourself. It seems to me that you literally hate yourself because you cannot reach your standard of perfection, as it is literally impossible to do so. It's like setting the bar 30 ft higher and getting mad that you can jump that high. Well no human can jump 30ft. I was the same way, and I'm sure I still will be from time to time, which is OK too. I was so hard on myself if I made a mistake on my diet or some other silly thing, that the angry response would ruin it totally "well fuck it I had a bag of chips, why not eat a full pizza because im a fucking loser who has no disciple."  So really I think the solution is, focus on what you are great at, know your flaws, and work on the, and when you fuck up here and there, its TOTALLY OK and NORMAL, because no one is perfect since it is impossible. One you accept yourself; flaws and all, its a step towards greater love for oneself. Only then, can you truly share that love with others. Sure, you could to good work and all that for other people, but you will still suffer at the end of the day and all the good work you do, you will not even be able to truly appreciate it and want to do more than you can handle; setting off another explosion of self hate when you cannot fix the entire planet (I've been there). Its time to help yourself. Again, I cannot pretend to know what it is that you need to do, only you will know when you find out. Keep pushing onward.

[Commodent]

@kieranperez  I agree that the lack of empathy and practical detail is very discouraging and not really helpful at all. I dare say most people preaching about self-love has no clue what it is at all. It's just an ideology they believe will cure all their problems. What I'm saying on the other hand stems from direct experience and clinically proven methods (most notably for treatment-resistent patients), so I certainly hope you don't put what I'm saying in the same basket.

From "Healing the fragmented selves of trauma survivors" by Janina Fisher:

Quote

"What it means to “heal” is subjective, of course: for some clients, it implies the ability to function again, to simply reclaim their lives. But, as I observed the clients who began forming loving attachment bonds to their young selves, I could see healing at a much deeper level. Seeing them “bond” with the child they had once been and feeling their shame and self-hatred melt away convinced me that the left brain “adult” side of each one was capable of relating to the right brain “child” side, experiencing him or her as innocent and little, spontaneously evoking warmth and protectiveness. By bonding to the lost children inside, their internal states transformed, creating a warm, loving environment that felt safe at last.

[...]

Capitalizing on the tendency of the left brain to remain positive, task-oriented, and logical under stress, these writers hypothesized that the disconnected left brain side of the personality stays focused on the tasks of daily living, while the other hemisphere fosters an implicit right brain self that remains in survival mode, braced for danger, ready to run, frozen in fear, praying for rescue, or too ashamed to do anything but submit. In each individual client, I could see that some parts were easier to identify with or “own” and some parts were easier to ignore or dismiss as “not me.”

"Self-love" is not really about feeling good, it's about acknowledging every single part of yourself, whether it be feeling good or not. You might feel good or you might not. You can't force yourself to feel a certain way, but you can still make efforts in cheering yourself up just like you can make efforts cheering up a friend. Again, the attempt might work and it might not. The important thing is that the experience is being acknowledged.

When I read your example, I can clearly see two parts of you that are at odds with each other. The part of you that has suffered a lot and desperately wants to feel good and that small 4 year old child within you that feels like an incompetent loser. Both parts have very valid (and tragic) reasons for feeling that way, and both need nurturance. This nurturance can be given externally, or it can be given internally by the left-brain that remains positive and logical and knows how to talk in a helpful manner.

When it comes to perfectionism you might enjoy this article about shrinking the inner critic.

Regarding "letting go" I would like to offer a practical example. Let's say you have an issue with social anxiety. It might have started with you becoming aware of the anxiety and then you start ruminating over it because you want to get rid of it. By doing this you are replaying the unwanted scenario over and over again in your head, thus strengthening the neural pathways between the brain regions associated with social situations and anxiety. (A scientific study showed that someone sitting in front of a piano imagining playing a sequence will experience the same brain changes as someone who actually playing the sequence). So, the next time you're in a social situation the anxiety is much more likely to get triggered. Similarly, this problem can be "forgotten" by not thinking about the association. As stated by @Angelo John Gage this is called neuroplasticity and every brain has this mechanism.

PS. You can really just forget about "letting go" and "self-love" altogether. Those words carry so much useless baggage.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Commodent

[Aeris]

3 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Killer video!  Important message.  Perfectionism is much a big block.  I'm a perfectionist by nature too.  I had to learn how to love partial credit.  It's all about that partial credit.  Life is about partial credit more than it is about perfectionism.

can you expand on this idea of "partial credit", cause I could use the sentence, life is about balance, it makes sense, but very relative to where I rise the balance.

[Angelo John Gage]

@Commodent I agree with you that those terms are confusing to some because they are thrown around so much. What do you suggest we use instead? For example, the very friend who gave me my the advice HATES using the word ego, that too comes with a lot of baggage and instead uses "the chatter box" in your head or some other terms not thrown around by spiritual teachings. Perhaps we can come up with a better term than "letting go" whatever.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Angelo John Gage

[DrewNows]

Lovely video @Angelo John Gage and a cool discussion regarding perfectionism 

A lot of these terms we all throw around on here are ways to describe "direct insight". They cannot simply be spoon fed to people or taken for granted if facing similar situations/problems because they must be relatable to direct experience.

So much of our programming (monkey mind, habits/behaviors) operate out of our subconscious and when we do not understand the limitations of thought, it's nearly impossible to become conscious of or recognize our self created limitations, let alone change them. This is where meditation comes in handy because with an increase in awareness and a quieting of the mind, we can start to "see" and "allow" our emotions to flow through rather than turning to thought and looking outward for feedback to validate our perception of reality. With the recognition of our created limitations, we can begin to weed out the unproductive thoughts and replace them with silence or conscious "fun" (self) thoughts

Edited July 24, 2019 by DrewNows

[Angelo John Gage]

@DrewNows thanks for the feedback. Good points. 

[Commodent]

@Angelo John Gage I feel like the terms are less likely to get corrupted if they are more technically accurate, corresponding to something relatable people can actually visualize and replicate.

Instead of self-love, maybe "resolving inner conflict" and/or "improving the inner dynamic". Maybe even more specific; "talking nonjudgmentally to the wounded parts of yourself", "allowing yourself to be as you are and feel what you feel". "Be here and not there".

Instead of letting go, maybe "forgetting" (because that's essentially what it is). Maybe "making it a non-issue". Putting your mind on something else that you actually enjoy thinking about.

[Farnaby]

12 hours ago, Commodent said:

@kieranperez I think the reason why the advice of letting go rarely works is because it largely has become a cliché and people don't know what it really means. It's just an idea. How exactly does one let go? How do you love yourself? Well, nobody tells you that, so the advice is usually pretty worthless.

In my view self-love is simply talking patiently and compassionately to yourself like you would to a small child or loved one. You become your own support system so to speak. Anyone can do that, just like anyone has the capacity to talk patiently and compassionately to a child. It can take some time to cultivate the habit, though.

I wouldn't totally abolish the notion of letting go either. I remember when I first heard of it I thought it meant pushing away emotions, and I did exactly that in a rather neurotic way. It caused me a lot of harm, so for a long time I had a distaste for it. But that's not really it. You can acknowledge all of your emotions and every single part of you, and still let go. You see, most of our deep problems are not really problems and they're completely self-constructed. They're self-fulfilling prophecies and by focusing on it you're only making the problem stronger.

This goes well along with our understanding of neurology. By focusing on the problem you are strengthening the neural pathways associated to it. "Cells that fire together wire together." So you can litterally think yourself mentally ill. So what do you do? You ignore the problem and after a couple of weeks or months you quite litterally forget the problem. You need to trust that the solution does not lie in thinking about the problem, but rather by not thinking about it. It's very counter-intuitive.

@Commodent It can actually feel kind of scary (at least for me) when you realize most of your problems are self-fulfilling prophecies  

I used to hate when people told other people or myself to let go and don't worry, because it felt like they didn't understand that it's not something we always have control over. Until recently, when I noticed that I actually have more "control" over my thoughts than I thought I had. Control is maybe not the right word, since experientally it feels more like an act of faith in the universe which allows me to stop worrying and actually feel in control, even if it sounds paradoxical. Kind of like when Alan Watts said that by giving up trying to control everything, you actually get the control you were seeking". 

I think a good approach to get to the point of being able to trust the universe and let go is being very compassionate and loving towards our worries and make some space for the emotions and body sensations that arise when we worry. So instead of telling others or myself "stop worrying, it's pointless" what I found to be more effective is to treat this worried part like a vulnerable child. This helps release resistance and tension, which in turn leads to more pleasant and grounded experiences and that's when you experientally see how powerful your mind is in shaping your reality. 

 

[Commodent]

@Farnaby  Yes, that realization of self-fulfilling prophecies can be very daunting. Partly I think because there are no obvious solutions, so it's easy to feel very trapped. The solution is really making it a non-issue, but it's very, very hard to see that because it goes against everything we're taught and it goes directly against how we perceive ourselves. It shouldn't be forceful either as you don't want to strengthen the habit of fighting with yourself. So it definitely requires a huge leap of faith. What has helped me in the process is reminding myself how neuroplasticity works and that it generally takes weeks or months to notice any change.

[possibilities]

Just 2 cents: These are all just consciousness patterns sir, prior conditioning. But with repeated honest caring self examination, the train tracks will inevitably switch to a more developed rhythm. It is all rhythm, these things pop up because of a rhythm, so in this investigation consciousness learns to more and more balance it’s loops. Your perception of existence is like a song, your internal dialogue is it’s melody.