Unspirituality?

[Becks]

@Kushu2000 quantum mechanics has been proven to shatter these ideals of the physical world as we know it. The very technology that we are using to converse on this website would not have existed without holding the the proven facts about how all the small particles in our world have these unexplainable, but true qualities.

Since we are made up of these particles, who's to say that there cant be a possibility that Leo is right, or wrong ?

I really dont expect you to be open to this because of your previous replies but I do have hope that there is a possibility you will

Researching quantum mechanics and learning about the principles will help.

Edited July 20, 2019 by Becks

[Aakash]

@Joseph Maynor I actually have no clue. Maybe there's an end to the real path , maybe there's not. 

But there's no end to minor improvements to improve the quality of ones life. 

it is as some like to say a never-ending-cycle 

The only thing you can do is plan a stopping point where you can say "I've done enough" 

You will get old and you will get tired of developing

Which ultimately makes you cycle back to the core pathway. 

Its tricky, to say the least. The balancing act of all balancing act. 

We all want comfort, the boundaries are just varied. However, ultimately we will all seek the absolute in the end 

To which you would like there to be an end 

To which god will give you a legitimate end point which you will think is total. 

This is my current view

where does the morality lie, does one let the finish line come to him or does he run to the finish line when they have past the point of no return and become completely selfless. 

Edited July 20, 2019 by Aakash

[Maarten]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Maarten Truth is not the average of all perspectives. If only it were so easy! Truth is much more tricky than that.

If I were to compromise with a materialist devil, I would only debase myself. It's the devil's strategy to get you to compromise with him. He will kick and scream to get you to take him seriously.

Remember, all that a devil has to do to win is muddly the waters. That's the game here. The devil cannot win in actuality because he is coming from falsehood. The devil wins by getting you distracted from Truth and Love.

Hmm, I don't think I quite understand.

Even though truth might not be the average of all perspectives, every perspective might be true relative to certain desires not? So doesn't that make truth ultimately subjective? And since reality is logical by very definition as everything is connected, doesn't that mean that a logical connection is possible between any two concepts? You would only compromise if your intelligence is limited would you not? If you had complete access to infinite intelligence, that would mean that you could instantly solve any conflict by creating logical connections between them that show that they're both true.

Sort of like when you think you want 2 different things, e.g. you want to live both an expressive life and a passive life of meditation. One might think that those are conflicting interests only if they didn't see that they are complementary truths. One wouldn't make much sense without the other, and thus they can not just coexist, but they actually create a richness in what would otherwise be a rather bland experience (only appreciation would be rather colourless, and only expressivity wouldn't be very worthwhile).

It just seems to me that there is always an integration possible that includes two seemingly contradictory goals, in a manner that doesn't exclude anything (making it not a compromise, but a win-win situation).

Since reality is completely logical (meaning any statement can only be derived from a prior statements), doesn't that mean that complete falsehood is metaphysically impossible? I.e. regardless of how inclusive this statement is of other perspectives, it is still true relative to the goals of perspective that imagined them.

As such, when you say that the goal of the devil to spread ignorance, I interpret that as that their goal is to raise confusion (muddying of the waters as you call it). Yet what I'm claiming is that for every attempt the devil makes to do this, it should be possible that to instead of fighting his claims through force (which is the very same process the devil uses right?), instead an integration with this truth is possible that creates a higher truth which is inclusive of both truths, making it impossible for anyone listening to fight this truth because there is no logical denying it possible. The ultimate extrapolation of this would be a truth so all-inclusive that it includes everything that can ever be said, every story that can ever happen, etc.

If this is the way reality works, then isn't a devil nothing but a limited intelligence with attachments that keep it from integrating with the rest of reality? Of course he would kick and scream if you try to convince him to surrender, that is only understandable considering his perspective. Yet my claim is that there is no need to fight his goals if only your solution is intelligent enough (and I guess it's more of a faith, as my intelligence is limited, so I can't have a complete awareness that what I'm claiming is true, but it's logically impossible to disprove it).

Another implication of what I'm saying is that there are no evil-doers, only needy seekers of limited intelligence that waltz over other perspectives because of their limitedness. This is because in this reality there is no effect without cause, so even the devil must have a reason for his devilishness, which is fundamentally that he is in a seemingly eternal pain.

Edited July 20, 2019 by Maarten
Bettered

[Potato People King]

@Maarten To me it seems (simply put) that Leo just does not take Zzenn seriously, does not like his approach to spirituality and is not interested in trying to interpret him or debate his views. And Leo uses his terminology (like materialistic devil) and generally the way he present himself to express this.

2 hours ago, Maarten said:

As such, when you say that the goal of the devil to spread ignorance, I interpret that as that their goal is to raise confusion (muddying of the waters as you call it). Yet what I'm claiming is that for every attempt the devil makes to do this, it should be possible that to instead of fighting his claims through force (which is the very same process the devil uses right?), instead an integration with this truth is possible that creates a higher truth which is inclusive of both truths, making it impossible for anyone listening to fight this truth because there is no logical denying it possible. The ultimate extrapolation of this would be a truth so all-inclusive that it includes everything that can ever be said, every story that can ever happen, etc.

Smells like dialectical thinking… I think Hegel would have something to say about this line of reasoning...

Well, after reding your post, what is there left to say (rhetoricall question :-))? Maybe that a real debate is possible only when there are at least two wiling participants, who agree to certain rules of logical reasoning (since you should use arguments in a debate). Otherwise there is no debate possible. For example, I would be very interested in seeing Leo debating (or just talking with) various people from "spiritual community" on various topics (for example like Zzenn did with Joseph Maynor - I saw all the Joseph's vids with him by the way), but this seems a little bit impossible precisely due to Leo's approach right now (and in the past also if I am not mistaken). To be clear - I do not see it as a problem or a some kind of Leo's flaw - that is just the way how I see Leo is and is presenting himself.

By the way, I think that Leo Gura - Sadhguru debate could be totally possible and doable (Sadhguru did interviews with London Real or Tom Bilyeu for example), but again, I highly doubt Leo would be interested (not sure abou money involved, that could possibly be the issue). But hey, from PR point of view, it would make totally sense, because their audiences definitely overlap in some ways! :-) Can you imagine Leo asking Sadhguru about psychedelics? I think that would be the bing bang happening right there :-D Also, it would be totally super interesting to see how would Leo and Sadhguru interact, where they both claim they have accessed dimensions of counciousness which are out of ordinary people's experience. I am just excited thinking about it!

Winterknight would be also a good pick for Leo's discussion video.

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Maarten said:

Even though truth might not be the average of all perspectives, every perspective might be true relative to certain desires not?

There are many deeply deluded perspectives.

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So doesn't that make truth ultimately subjective?

No, actual Truth is not a concept, thought, idea, or perspective. It is what is.

Conceptual truths are partial and never complete. Conceptual truths are relative and subjective.

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And since reality is logical by very definition as everything is connected, doesn't that mean that a logical connection is possible between any two concepts?

Don't assume that reality is logical.

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If you had complete access to infinite intelligence, that would mean that you could instantly solve any conflict by creating logical connections between them that show that they're both true.

No necessarily.

First, access infinite intelligence, and then let's talk.

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Sort of like when you think you want 2 different things, e.g. you want to live both an expressive life and a passive life of meditation. One might think that those are conflicting interests only if they didn't see that they are complementary truths. One wouldn't make much sense without the other, and thus they can not just coexist, but they actually create a richness in what would otherwise be a rather bland experience (only appreciation would be rather colourless, and only expressivity wouldn't be very worthwhile).

It just seems to me that there is always an integration possible that includes two seemingly contradictory goals, in a manner that doesn't exclude anything (making it not a compromise, but a win-win situation).

Since reality is completely logical (meaning any statement can only be derived from a prior statements), doesn't that mean that complete falsehood is metaphysically impossible? I.e. regardless of how inclusive this statement is of other perspectives, it is still true relative to the goals of perspective that imagined them.

Your thinking is quite muddled here.

Many of your assumptions are groundless. Awakening is not about integrating various human worldviews.

Quote

As such, when you say that the goal of the devil to spread ignorance, I interpret that as that their goal is to raise confusion (muddying of the waters as you call it). Yet what I'm claiming is that for every attempt the devil makes to do this, it should be possible that to instead of fighting his claims through force (which is the very same process the devil uses right?), instead an integration with this truth is possible that creates a higher truth which is inclusive of both truths, making it impossible for anyone listening to fight this truth because there is no logical denying it possible. The ultimate extrapolation of this would be a truth so all-inclusive that it includes everything that can ever be said, every story that can ever happen, etc.

There are far too many deluded worldviews on this planet to take them all seriously. You have limited time and attention. If you take every fool on this planet seriously, you will never awaken.

Cut the shit and go straight for awakening.

Access the Absolute Truth. Access Infinite Intelligence. It's possible. I've done it. Many others have too. There's nothing to debate here. You either do the practices or you are just clowning around.

That's what this entire thread is, clowning around.

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura Just curious, how is your embodiment work going? Are you less focused on it now?

[Galyna]

9 hours ago, Aakash said:

Just like how you don't see what both joseph and unspiritual as legitamate claims. Think about it. If your watching one of leo's videos and his title is "humanity is the bullshitting animal" your obviously going to think this guys a druggy and cult leader ahaha

It just does not make sense to me. The way he talks, I disagree with him. 

I am sorry I do not have time to write as much as you do. 

8 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I trust you watched all 3 videos before arriving at your conclusion.

Are you going to have a channel in the future? I've always wondered about it. Why don't you have your own channel if you have so many things to share?

I do not have time to watch these videos, sorry. 

Edited July 20, 2019 by Galyna

[Hsinav]

@Kushu2000 This Zzenn guy is just as ignorant as the title of the channel promised.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, How to be wise said:

@Leo Gura Just curious, how is your embodiment work going? Are you less focused on it now?

Better than ever.

There is less efforting and more of just being myself.

I find that mechanical techniques actually just get in the way of being me.

[RendHeaven]

1 hour ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I'm not neurotic about sharing my insights.

I've noticed this change in the past year.

Keep it up 

[Dan502]

Did anyone notice that in Zzen's video, he drank a smoothie similar to the one Leo showed us how to make?  

I've never tried psychadelics so am treating the video as a personal reminder that even though it's pretty cool to hear about these mystical states of consciousness, I don't actually understand or can relate to them myself.

I sometimes judge people on the sophistication or sensibility of their dialogue. Sloppy expressions of rhetoric turn me off. It seems worth acknowleding that Leo is very careful about what he says and uses plenty of caveats. In fact it's the first thing he does in the Collective Consciousness video . This indicates groundedness and is conveniently ignored by critics.

The conscious politics videos should indicate that, wild awakenings aside, Leo hasn't lost any of his intellect or composure. A cynic might say that such reassurances shouldn't be necessary and that those who need them will filter them out anyway. I wonder what I'm filtering out.

Oh, love. If Zzen actually cared, he'd have acted out of real concern rather than making a bitchy YouTube video unless he wasn't particularly skilled at acting lovingly, which is possible as most people aren't, or unless my own understanding of love is overly-simplistic, which is also possible. I'm talking from my humble experience of love with a small "l" here, rather than love with a capital "L".

Edited July 21, 2019 by Dan502

[XYZ]

2 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

 

 

This video didn't resonate much at all, felt like an attempt to bridge classic actualized.org content with the spirituality love and consciousness theme of the current era.

Since life is non-linear, illogical and counter-intuitive. Learning math or a foreign language progresses with cumulative experience, but the human experience goes up, down, backwards, fast-forward upside-down, inside-out, twisted around and meta. Change seems to happen over decades and also in the blink of an eye, and the more maturity and experience developed, the more childish wonder and radical open-mindedness occurs alongside this.

Can understand though if someone takes their 'self' and life seriously and has had normal progression through education, employment, socialization and relationships. having made consistent progress within their perception of reality. Seems like there has never been a grounded perception of "myself" or "objective reality" to begin with, so that precluded taking the human experience seriously and pursuing personal development from the conventional path. Either that or I was so entrenched in my victimhood mindset and sense of self that it prevented me from pursuing success, until I don't take the human experience seriously at all, then it's all reframed as an experience of infinite love. Without even gauging how directly immersed it is, but not a belief, a deep understanding and acceptance, makes perfect sense whether I believe it or don't. From this place meanings, emotions, life and death, success or failure, utility and wastefulness, it doesn't matter. It's all groundless, all my memories are imaginary, that is literally my direct experience, my ego might as well have been born a microsecond ago, and it doesn't matter what will happen to it.  Why would it not then just create itself and create creations, it has nothing to lose. 

If all I've said, all that Leo has said, every teaching, ever book, every video, every word is word, false, deluded, it doesn't matter. This is like Pascal's Wager 2.0. If there is actually nothing, then there is just nothing.

 

[XYZ]

 

[mandyjw]

I love how the hero's journey video ends.

“The village has disappeared in the evening mist 
And the path is hard to follow. 
Walking through the pines, 
I return to my lonely hut.”
―Ryōkan

[Cocolove]

@Leo Gura Could you elaborate on why you think the stages you've reached are beyond what most are capable of. I mean the people on this forum are far more conscious that average people, and what if they did the same amount of work you did, or double. It's not like you were accessing higher states of consciousness than others before you started the work. Yes, you have gone deeper than lots of other teachers, faster too, but what if we are using your methods?

[Cody_Atzori]

The point of life is feel good.

[Commodent]

On 20.7.2019 at 4:58 PM, Leo Gura said:

Better than ever.

There is less efforting and more of just being myself.

I find that mechanical techniques actually just get in the way of being me.

Have you ever looked in to chakras? There is so much bullshit and woo on the subject, but I actually think it offers a quite holistic framework to spiritual development. What you're describing here is mostly associated to the opening of the 2nd chakra, svadhistana. I can definitely recommend the book "Eastern Body, Western Mind" by Anodea Judith.

Also, do you plan on doing a video on embodiment work? That's something I'm very interested in.

[Shadowraix]

@Commodent Got any actual good resources on working with chakras? There's lots of conflicting stuff and I never know what to follow. 

[Commodent]

@Shadowraix I personally found the book I mentioned ("Eastern Body, Western Mind") a pretty good resource, as it goes through all the chakras from bottom to top and is very in depth. I'm not sure what to think of the practices but the theory is good.

[Shadowraix]

@Commodent Thanks a lot! I'll check it out.