Unspirituality?

[RendHeaven]

@Richard Alpert

First of all, cite your sources. You may be bastardizing this finding, and none of us will know that unless you are transparent about your claims.

Secondly, just because there are correlations between the brain and what you may call mystical experiences, that is NOT "proof" that the brain causes states of consciousness.

Correlation is not causation. Basic statistics. You learn this in high school.

Edited July 19, 2019 by RendHeaven

[Richard Alpert]

9 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

@Richard Alpert

First of all, cite your sources. You may be bastardizing this finding, and none of us will know that unless you are transparent about your claims.

Secondly, just because there are correlations between the brain and what you may call mystical experiences, that is NOT "proof" that the brain causes states of consciousness.

Correlation is not causation. Basic statistics. You learn this in high school.

Never heard anyone with no brain activity have any kind of "spiritual" experience.

The spiritual doorway in the brain by Kevin Nelson. 

[RendHeaven]

5 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

1) Never heard anyone with no brain activity have any kind of "spiritual" experience.

2) The spiritual doorway in the brain by Kevin Nelson. 

1) That's because you're assuming consciousness is fractured and trapped within individual people.

2) Thanks! I suggest you (and anyone else who is curious) take a look at this review of that book.

These reviewers clearly know what they are talking about, as shown by their ability to take multiple paradigms into account.

The important takeaway is, Nelson was evidently biased and paradigm locked. This is questioned thoroughly in this review.

This does not discount his findings, but it does discount his conclusions. Notice, what a scientist finds and what a scientist concludes can be two very different things.

https://www.academia.edu/9480789/The_Spiritual_Doorway_in_the_Brain_A_Neurologists_Search_for_the_God_Experience_by_Kevin_Nelson_review_

[Truth Addict]

11 minutes ago, Shiva said:

I think you might be underestimating states of consciousness.

Consider the possibility of a state of consciousness where you realize, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that this state of consciousness is the realest thing there is. Perhaps even the only thing there is...

And that this "ordinary" state of consciousness we're having right now is a complete dilution, fantasy land!

But how could you possibly see that when you're in this fantasy land? - You can't! 

LOL. This can't be further from the truth.

Ordinary states of consciousness are just as real as the higher ones. All states of consciousness are real. There's nothing but states of consciousness. That's what the higher states show you.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Truth Addict

[RendHeaven]

2 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

@Richard Alpert

Heart stopped, blood drained from body and brain, chilled to 60 degrees NDE.

Wow, this is a gem!

Sadly, I get this feeling that materialists will still insist on "hallucination!" to maintain their worldview of "brainz>everything else!!"

[RendHeaven]

4 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

LOL. This can't be further from the truth.

Ordinary states of consciousness are just as real as the higher ones. All states of consciousness all real. There's nothing but states of consciousness. That's what the higher states show you.

Finger pointing to the moon, my man 

Ofc the finger ain't the moon.

Shiva's analogy here is clearly tailored toward someone locked in materialism, thus it is a partial truth.

You can't bust out anekantavada on a materialist, they will reject it immediately 

(not that anekantavada is any more "truthful" than any other partial truth, necessarily. Very twisted, tricky stuff.)

Edited July 19, 2019 by RendHeaven

[Richard Alpert]

1 minute ago, RendHeaven said:

Finger pointing to the moon, my man 

Ofc the finger ain't the moon.

Shiva's analogy here is clearly tailored toward someone locked in materialism, thus it is a partial truth.

You can't bust out anekantavada on a materialist, they will reject it immediately 

So the moon wont be there if you dont look at it?

 

[Truth Addict]

5 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

So the moon wont be there if you dont look at it?

You make it sound like it matters. Like your identity is dependent on the moon's existence.

It's possible that the moon gets hit by a massive meteor while you're not looking. Who knows?

What do you know other than right now? Literally nothing.

[Richard Alpert]

6 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

You make it sound like it matters. Like your identity is dependent on the moon's existence.

It's possible that the moon gets hit by a massive meteor while you're not looking. Who knows?

What do you know other than right now? Literally nothing.

You did not get it, did you.. where did i say it matters? i just wanted an answer.

[Inliytened1]

@Richard Alpert what is something without a perceiver?

[Richard Alpert]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Richard Alpert what is something without a perceiver?

so the moon stops existing when there are 8 billion perceivers minus one?

If whole humanity would be wiped away i think it still would be a moon. It would not be called a moon since there would be no language but it would be what it is.

[Truth Addict]

6 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

You did not get it, did you.. where did i say it matters? i just wanted an answer.

Why do you want an answer? I don't need your answer, keep it for yourself. Become aware of your mechanisms.

And let me help you out a little bit. It matters to you because you believe that the world is material. You deem everyone who doesn't believe the same thing 'deluded' and discount them. You're like super obvious, classic materialist.

1 minute ago, Richard Alpert said:

so the moon stops existing when there are 8 billion perceivers minus one?

Then there would be 8 billion human beings minus one, telling that one a story about the existence of the moon. Very simple.

Stories are not true, nor false. They're just stories. Become aware of that.

[Inliytened1]

@Richard Alpert  Some "thing" collapses into Being when you are not perceiving it. Form collapses into formlessness.  When you perceive something it collapses back in the other direction from formlessness to form.  

In your finite form you cannot be other perspectives so you do not know what is collapsing into form or formless for them.   But the Moon is both form and formless simultaneously.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Inliytened1

[Richard Alpert]

3 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

Why do you want an answer? I don't need your answer, keep it for yourself. Become aware of your mechanisms.

And let me help you out a little bit. It matters to you because you believe that the world is material. You deem everyone who doesn't believe the same thing 'deluded' and discount them. You're like super obvious, classic materialist.

Then there would be 8 billion human beings minus one, telling that one a story about the existence of the moon. Very simple.

Stories are not true, nor false. They're just stories. Become aware of that.

Did you read it or are you dyslexic? I said that the moon would be there (with no name) if there were no humans telling stories about it.

I don´t have problem with materilism, 

 

[Shadowraix]

2 hours ago, Richard Alpert said:

I been switching mails with Zenn for maybe a year. 

He is a real deal. He is not perfect, far from it, but he is a great teacher. People don´t want to listen him because he will fuck your world up. He is brutally honest, nasty, friendly, loving, human. He is the full spectrum of humanism.

Left hand path and new age does not mix well.

He has had the most powerfull kundalini awekening (human metamorphosis) and has talked about how he has had pretty much every textbook spiritual "state" and experience. He also started his path 35 years ago. Experience matters in everything. He knows what is what and has no shame.

 

 

 

Makes me wonder why he's still masturbating about concepts like Leo. That's a large portion of the intellectual work until you go past that into pure being Ness. It's a big part of the journey but I thought 30 years would make you past that. Of course that's probably me doing the same thing I just talked against in the first sentence. 

[Richard Alpert]

2 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

Makes me wonder why he's still masturbating about concepts like Leo. That's a large portion of the intellectual work until you go past that into pure being Ness. It's a big part of the journey but I thought 30 years would make you past that. Of course that's probably me doing the same thing I just talked against in the first sentence. 

 

[Truth Addict]

23 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

Did you read it or are you dyslexic?

That sounds like suffering on your side.

23 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

I said that the moon would be there (with no name) if there were no humans telling stories about it.

That's irrelevant to what I'm trying to point out to you.

Anyway, where exactly is this 'there' that the moon would be in, other than your imagination?

If you're not looking at the moon right now, how do you know with a 100% certainty that it's still in the sky? How do you know with a 100% certainty that there is even a sky if you're not looking at it right now?

You might say: I could go outside and look at it, and that would prove that I'm right. But that would be you imagining a future where you could go and do that, not actually experiencing any moon in the present moment.

If you want to understand spirituality, you must discard all notions of future and past at first.

23 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

I don´t have problem with materilism.

I don't have a problem with it too, except that it's not the absolute truth, but rather just a perspective, a very practical one indeed (which is the best thing about materialism).

Materialism is highly dependent on imagination/assumptions, and materialists believe that it delivers the truth (notice: belief = imagination). Materialists poo poo metaphysics, but you (especially materialists) can't escape metaphysics. Become aware of that.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Inliytened1]

38 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

 

If whole humanity would be wiped away i think it still would be a moon. It would not be called a moon since there would be no language but it would be what it is.

It would be pure consciousness or infinity.   Think about it.  If no one is there to see it there is no difference between it existing or not.  It just is itself.  Which is what you are fundamentally...but you may need a mystical experience to really become directly conscious of this.   Because just like the moon you yourself can go from form to collapsing into pure Being or the formless.  That's when materialism will melt away for you.

[RendHeaven]

@Richard Alpert I mentioned the moon as an analogy.

But, since you ask, the answer is "I don't know."

And if you were really honest, that would be your answer also.

Notice, RIGHT NOW, that in your direct experience, you do not perceive anything "behind" you.

Now, if you were to turn around, you might say that what was "behind" you is now visible.

And once again if you turned back to your original orientation, "behind" is once again invisible.

Where did all the forms go?

"Well, they're behind me!"

Nope. That's a mental map you constructed. Do you understand that? 

For all you know, what's "behind" you might physically cease to exist while you are not aware of it.

When you turn back around, it spontaneously materializes.

Now, I'm not saying that's what actually happens. What I am saying, though, is that there are gaps in your certainty of reality and you fill them with thought stories.

What happens to the forms behind you when you do not see them?

Well, you imagine that they continue to exist while not being observed.

Key word, imagine. You have no way of verifying this.

In order to imagine this, you literally invent "you," "perceptual field/vision," "objects," "space/location," and "time."

I am telling you that these things literally do not exist.

So what does exist??

 

Imagine this (lol): Let's pretend "direct experience" is like a a big canvas. The forms you see are paint on that canvas.

So as you turn around, the paint changes. In fact, as you live life, the paint is constantly changing.

The whole process is so mysterious that you, that being the curious little cat you are, you MUST explain it to yourself.

So what do you do? You start calling the paint "objects." When the paint changes, you tell yourself that these are different objects that are being perceived by you.

In doing this, however, you lose sight of the canvas. You only see the paint.

Try to get in touch with the canvas. The experience as it happens prior to your mind projecting all sorts of conceptions.

 

So once again, 

Notice, RIGHT NOW, that in your direct experience, you do not perceive anything "behind" you.

Your direct experience is your direct experience. The canvas regardless of the paint.

Now, if you were to turn around, you might say that what was "behind" you is now visible.

Your direct experience is your direct experience. The canvas regardless of the paint. Turning around does not change this.

And once again if you turned back to your original orientation, "behind" is once again invisible.

Where did all the forms go?

No, they are NOT "behind you."

And if you are adamantly going to insist that they are, at least admit that you are imagining it and that you are taking a blind leap of faith.

The "external world" is NOT obvious. It is NOT common sense.

If you were really really really honest, when I ask, "where did all the forms go?"

You would say "I don't know."

 

And not knowing, my friend, is both the starting point as well as the whole journey.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by RendHeaven

[Truth Addict]

4 minutes ago, Shiva said:

I try to tell people what they need to hear to move one step forward.

Being accurate in describing a deeper reality is not so important to me as one needs to experience it for oneself anyway.

From your earlier post, I doubt you ever experienced any higher states of consciousness.