Unspirituality?

[RendHeaven]

1 hour ago, Kushu2000 said:

1) Yes, the states of consciousness Leo has accessed are insane. But that's all they are - States of consciousness.

2) After the drug wears off, he comes back down into the "physical world".. which Leo states is an illusion. The guy makes a lot of good arguments in this video. When you access these states of consciousness, there IS no past or future anymore and you deem your past - your childhood - as ILLUSION...which is obviously an escape from reality.

3) It's much easier to live in this love-and-light trance than it is to go back into your childhood and face your shadow. This is a trance. A higher state of consciousness. It's all going on locally WITHIN LEO'S IMAGINATION.

4) If you were to look at leo while he is tripping balls on, say, shrooms, and hallucinating harry potter, you will just see a person who is high on drugs screaming out: "OMG guys, do you see?? Harry potter is real!" Yeah, it was real, for HIM, but it wasn't there in the "natural world".

5) Ofc leo is gonna use the counter-argument: "there is no difference between me and you at that state of consciousness, there is no subjective and objective... It's all one!! You don't get what i'm saying because you are not at this state of consciousness yet!! Get on my level bro!!" (That is literally how Leo behaves - as an arrogant know-it-all. That's my 2 cents.

1) "But that's all they are - states of consciousness" - define that. I don't think you know the full meaning of "states of consciousness."

2) No, not "obviously an escape from reality." Why do you get to call your experience of reality True? Why is your experience more Truthful while his is somehow a fantasy? Citing "drugs!" is insufficient. People have profound enlightenment experiences sober. How do you explain this? More hallucinations? What, so all profound experiences that other people have are fake, but your experiences are what's actually real? Why do you get to make that exception?

3) Consciousness isn't "going on locally" anywhere. Location is a model you use to describe phenomena. A mental projection. By relegating consciousness as something within a relative model, you further show that you have no clue as to what "consciousness" is.

4) Why does the "natural world" get priority over Leo's hypothetical "hallucination?" Your "natural world" itself is your own hallucination. No difference. You just don't see that because of your impatience. Notice how in every single critique you mount, you are prioritizing your own experiences as somehow more True? You have this notion of what "real reality" is. What we are all telling you here is that you have investigated this not nearly enough.

5) Leo is not going to use any "counter-arguments," lol. He is not in the business of arguing. Fancy this: he has been in your shoes and beyond, and he is sharing what he has learned. You have only been in your own shoes and not his, and you are the one pointing fingers.

And you really have the audacity to call Leo the arrogant one?

Edited July 19, 2019 by RendHeaven

[Leo Gura]

Haha!

Talk about casting your pearls before swine!

Funny how that works. You can't get a donkey to recognize himself in the mirror no matter how much you try. How do you explain to a donkey that he's God???

"Hey donkey, you're God!"

Donkey:

Watch out, he might bite you too!

P.S. When a guy names his channel "Unspirituality", that's your clue.

[nistake]

4 hours ago, ajasatya said:

@Kushu2000 Stick to what makes sense to you and follow your heart. This is not a game of beliefs.

Let the trippers trip. Let the criticizers criticize. Do your best to improve the quality of your life and that's it.

Well put.

[molosku]

6 hours ago, Kushu2000 said:

@Shadowraix ... Why does everyone on this forum think that an altered state of consciousness is "the truth"??? I am doing the practices, no doubt, but i think that people blindly follow what leo says without questioning it. Also, if leo is so "open-minded", why does he never reply to topics that question his belief systems? You realize that psychedelics amplify what you imagine in your mind right? If you imagine yourself to be an omniscient god, you will be one. Go figure...

Have you ever experienced god realization? Where are you grounding your notions and understanding of what "altered state" means in awakening context? 

I don't remember where I heard this, maybe Adyashanti, but you are NOW in an altered state of consciousness. This is the altered state, where you believe you are debating with "other people". When you experience the not-altered-state, the stateless state, samadhi, awakening, you come out of it, but if you "forget it" your mind can only refer to it as an altered state. 

So yes this altered state is the truth, but the conversation around it, and the words we use to point to it, put up a tricky game of words. 

Ps. I have never seen a serious, well argumented objection towards leo being totally unaddressed by him or others. 

Edited July 19, 2019 by molosku

[pluto]

7 hours ago, ajasatya said:

@Kushu2000 Stick to what makes sense to you and follow your heart. This is not a game of beliefs.

Let the trippers trip. Let the criticizers criticize. Do your best to improve the quality of your life and that's it.

??

[Space]

8 hours ago, Kushu2000 said:

What do you guys think? Critical thinking is encouraged on this forum so banning me wouldn't make sense. Is Leo really just spiralling further down into la-la land? Is he just chasing that "high" the 5meo and DPT give him? You decide. Would love to hear your comments.

This guys videos have been posted on the forum a few times before. Of course people are free to give their opinions and criticisms on Leo's work and thats expected. I've always said i'm surprised their isn't more people like this guy, because Leo's teachings do sound crazy sometimes, especially to someone who hasn't watched many of Leo's other videos, and particularly for people who haven't had any deep mystical experiences. 

I think a lot of good points have already been said in this thread. I think the main thing is that this kind of stuff can't be understood with the rational logical mind. It simply doesn't work that way. And I get a sense that that is what this guy is trying to do. He's trying to fit Leo's teachings into his model of reality and what he believes is possible. 

I have personally taken 5-MeO a number of times. It is no 'high'. It's not a high in any way really. It's a radical shift in consciousness. What seems like chasing a high to some people, is actually a deep desire for Truth that basically no normal people even know to be possible. 

Have you personally taken psychedelics and specifically 5-MeO or DPT?

[Leo Gura]

No amount of psychedelics can help so long as the person maintains the context of "it's all just wacky stuff happening in the brain." That materialist anchor must be challenged until it is realized that the brain was merely a conceptual fabrication.

Of course it takes radical openmindedness to even take such a possibility seriously. It just does not occur to most people that their brain could be a hallucination. Let alone all of material reality, let alone their birth as a self.

This is radical work we're doing here folks. The mindfuck of it is epic beyond description. It is twisted as fuck.

[ajasatya]

Some things are too nuanced be clearly explained by language.

Just to give you a clue: what if it wasn't really "Leo" alterating the consciousness of fetuses (which, btw, it wasn't "Leo") but he became aware of Reality doing it? It's totally possible, since Reality is our own very mature.

I have watched the birth of galaxies and the death of stars. I have seen atoms pop up out of nothing.

"I feel every mountain. I hear every tree. I know every ocean. I taste every sea. I've seen every spring arrive. I've seen every summer thrive. I've seen every autumn keep. I've seen every winter sleep."

If you've had at least one experience beyond the feeling of being human, wiring the brain of fetuses is not that strange. Existence is creepingly absurd and radically mystical. There is still a long way to go.

And no need to worry. You're not the guardian of the Universe . Existence is prior to the avatar you're experiencing. We've been here for the eternal past and we'll be here for the eternal future to come. Have some fun. Let the trippers trip. Let the criticizers criticize. No harm is being done.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

Existence is radically mystical.

I like that

[Dan502]

For context, there's an intensity to Kushu2000's recent posts. For example, to paraphrase, " I meditate for 2 hours a day, let's have a dick measuring contest", "If enlightenment = death, why don't we all just kill ourselves?" and "Do we all think Leo is spiralling into Lala land?"

[Kushu2000]

@Dan502 @RendHeaven @RendHeaven @d0ornokey@RendHeaven  yes i didnt experience 5 meo yet.. so i cant really speak about it. I'm just trying to have an open mind.. Bear in mind i've been watching leo for a while so i'm very open to the fact that the materialist paradigm could be BS. However, i didnt experience it yet, so im just speculating here 

And also, if this guy Unspirituality has been on the spiritual path for 30+ years, dont you guys think that gives him some legitimacy? Leo has been on the path for 5 years or so...

[DnoReally]

@Kushu2000 Been a human for 20 years and still shit at it 

[Kushu2000]

@DnoReally should we really be learning how to go beyond our human-ness if we still suck at it?

[Aeris]

Some people die without enlightenment.

Time is absolutely relative 

So some people can know better in 5 years of practice than 50 years

It depends of many factors and how you do the practice and what kind of experience and knowledge you start with. ( Prior expériences )

There is no path for anything litteraly...

 

 

[noselfnofun]

I know ones things for sure I'm not going to take someone who makes videos criticising others to seriously. Yes think for yourself but listening to that channel isn't going to help you find the peace your looking for. I don't get a good vibe from the videos, how in the hell can he know for sure what Leo is expierincing

[noselfnofun]

Tho on the flip side I also wouldn't take someone who says they have accessed levels of conciouness higher than any other human being in history to seriously also, again how could u know that. People who progress gradually, without using to many pycs seem to be way more humble, mature and careful in how they give out information. I love Leo's videos and think he's got some amazing content but would just whish he would stop saying he's seen higher levels of conciouness higher then anyone in history, that should ring anyone's alarm bells and rightly so. Even If he has why say it. Tho maybe I learn to love it like he says ??❤

What about the great baba who foubded kyria yoga who's 5000 years old, surely hes seen a thing or too more then leo

Edited July 19, 2019 by noselfnofun

[kieranperez]

@Kushu2000

opinions I have on points I agree with:

• states of consciousness are relative
• The truth is NOT a state. The truth, God, you, etc. is true right now and can be realized as that independent of what state you’re in
• All states and experience are nonetheless still relative
• Having cosmic experiences, however grand they are, they are still nonetheles limited because they are NOT “mundane” or “unconscious”

Those are all points toward a bigger point which I’m sure you can see.

Quick Side Note: These are still nonetheless OPINIONS I have. Maybe a 5-MeO-DMT or several ones, which I’m working on aquiring, will convince me otherwise. I have no dedication to these points and am open to being flat out wrong. 

Where you’re flat out wrong:

• Speaking from the relative in the assumption that you are in fact another person, everything you perceive is an invention. Or as Leo puts it, is imaginary. All of these are synonmous
• There are no other people which is the fundamental problem with your example of testing people on imagination. You’re assuming there are other people
• If we’re going to talk about God or whatever we wanna call it (Being, The Self, The Truth, etc) we’re talking about Absolute Truth and “in” Absolute Truth there are no people, no mind, no world, no other, no things, etc. All of those can only seem to exist. They are illusions. Illusion literally means something thats Being yet appears to be otherwise. So in your text of looking at Leo or whatever, if you don’t have a direct experience of @Leo Gura in front of you, all Leo is is just a concept and fabrication. When you conjure up an idea of Leo, you fabricate, imagine, invent, and create a whole slew of stories and perceptions about this so called person. Not only that, even if you saw Leo, that perception would still apply. All of that is still a fabrication of your mind in order to handle this so called reality in order to survive and persist however, that doesn’t make true.’ What you call as the world at the end of the day is the mind. 
• Siddhis or spiritual powers like levitation don’t necessarily require enlightenment as those are all still relative experience. Do enough real dedicated yoga and you’d be surprised at what you can do. 

[Richard Alpert]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Haha!

Talk about casting your pearls before swine!

Funny how that works. You can't get a donkey to recognize himself in the mirror no matter how much you try. How do you explain to a donkey that he's God???

"Hey donkey, you're God!"

Donkey:

Watch out, he might bite you too!

P.S. When a guy names his channel "Unspirituality", that's your clue.

I been switching mails with Zenn for maybe a year. 

He is a real deal. He is not perfect, far from it, but he is a great teacher. People don´t want to listen him because he will fuck your world up. He is brutally honest, nasty, friendly, loving, human. He is the full spectrum of humanism.

Left hand path and new age does not mix well.

He has had the most powerfull kundalini awekening (human metamorphosis) and has talked about how he has had pretty much every textbook spiritual "state" and experience. He also started his path 35 years ago. Experience matters in everything. He knows what is what and has no shame.

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Richard Alpert

[Truth Addict]

I think it's necessary for everyone to (at least try to) take the other side's point of view in order to avoid 'Paradigm Lock'

[Richard Alpert]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No amount of psychedelics can help so long as the person maintains the context of "it's all just wacky stuff happening in the brain." That materialist anchor must be challenged until it is realized that the brain was merely a conceptual fabrication.

Of course it takes radical openmindedness to even take such a possibility seriously. It just does not occur to most people that their brain could be a hallucination. Let alone all of material reality, let alone their birth as a self.

This is radical work we're doing here folks. The mindfuck of it is epic beyond description. It is twisted as fuck.

there is a neuroscientist with 30 year old study who found out mystical experiences and near death experiences can be triggered by stimulating certain part of the brain. the exact same thing happens when you take psychedelic (chemical).

So you are your brain in that sense.

No matter how much you trip Leo you will always come back to default self. Or you might go psychotic that is also a option.

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Richard Alpert