Why the hell do we talk about this?

[kieranperez]

I really don’t understand why or how we even talk about matters of consciousness, God, existence, etc. I get the importance of the matter but in the end, nobody gets it. Nobody understands. It threatens people. It seems to create more division get people’s panties in a twist. It creates debate. 

Personally im really struggling to be authentic in my communication with others. How do I just ignore the stuff that I’m learning as a result of this work and simultaneously be honest and thus not have it effect people. I feel like this just creates more conflict and im tired of conflict. 

This seems to be the tragic part of this work. You come out the forest with gold and it turns to ashes. 

I can have some inspiring vision of raising the consciousness of mankind for example but what actually happens? Either a bunch of people just get deluded by the teachings, taking it totally for granted, nobody gets it, and you’re persecuted. 

Keep in mind, I don’t want to paint myself as some innocent victim soul. I do acknowledge I don’t communicate this stuff the most skillfully. Communication skills aren’t my highest gift AT ALL. 

I just feel like this begs the question though of why not just keep this to yourself? I’m starting to feel like the people who stay quiet are the real intelligent ones. 

[Aakash]

may i ask two questions 

a) what does perfection mean to you ?

b) is a vow of silence, helpful to others? 

[ajasatya]

@kieranperez Truth cannot be appreciated by an agitated mind. You need to take care of the earthly matters first. This is why it works for monks... they hack themselves into contentment by letting go of material success. Only a detached mind can be the soil for proper spiritual inquiry.

[kieranperez]

34 minutes ago, Aakash said:

is a vow of silence, helpful to others? 

The immediate answer is both yes and no. 

Doesn’t feel like a vow to speak helps either in my own experience. 

10 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

@kieranperez Truth cannot be appreciated by an agitated mind. You need to take care of the earthly matters first. This is why it works for monks... they hack themselves into contentment by letting go of material success. Only a detached mind can be the soil for proper spiritual inquiry.

This is such a gross overstatement. 

If someone has an agitated mind (and a lot of my response is dependent on what you mean when you say “agitated mind”) ,you don’t solve that by “going out and solving earthly matters.” Or I should say, it doesn’t just get solved by solving earthly matters. You go in by dealing with the psychological issues, depending on what they are. A lot of that is done by going and doing heavy psychotherapy. You don’t solve deep subconscious wounds on a cushion meditating 99% of the time. That’s why most people don’t get anywhere with stuff like self-inquiry. Their unconscious issues haven’t been dealt with and those blocks don’t get most effectively dealt with by pretending that you’re detaching  yourself from material stuff. Those issues will remain. 

[Surfingthewave]

@kieranperez The fact that you have opened up shows how authentic you are and how much progress you are making. Perhaps this is the deepest difficulty you face, similar to Leo. He has made massive progress by being more authentic.

People do understand but everyone is on their own path at different points, and will have their own triggers and struggles, I know I do. This forum can be a difficult place to express yourself and get a good debate going, because it is, just a forum, and not a face to face discussion. I wish you all the best and keep doing what your doing. 

Also I just wanted to add, I've unearthed some deep subconscious issues of my own on the cushion, which have been life changing so don't underestimate it's power. 

 

Edited July 14, 2019 by Surfingthewave

[Nahm]

56 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

I get the importance of the matter but in the end, nobody gets it.

What is it? The “importance”, which nobody gets? What is it you are talking about, in the direct sense?

Nobody understands.

In “understanding” you’ve identified as ‘the understander’. In “understanding” nobody “understands”, you’re still identified as “an understander”, and identify what you are seeing as physical individuals who do or do not “understand”. None of this is your direct experience though, at all. 

It threatens people.

What exactly is this “it” you’re talking about? How does “it” threaten people? 

It seems to create more division get people’s panties in a twist. It creates debate. 

What exactly is this “it” you’re talking about? Direct experience - not a thought story - what is it which “creates debate”? 

 

If there was an “it” causing division, threatening people, and creating debate in my life, I’d definitely see what “it” actually is.   

 

[Paul92]

@kieranperez I hear you. Especially about subconscious psychological issues. There are so many contradictions flying around, too. 

@Nahm How do you mean that it isn't his direct experience to be the understander? Surely it is... 

[kieranperez]

9 minutes ago, Surfingthewave said:

People do understand but everyone is on their own path at different points, and will have their own triggers and struggles, I know I do. This forum can be a difficult place to express yourself and get a good debate going, because it is, just a forum, and not a face to face discussion. I wish you all the best and keep doing what your doing. 

 

First off, I do appreciate the sentiment. 

Second, I wouldn’t say everybody understands. Almost nobody understands. Telling for example a family (this is quite noticeably the hardest people to talk about this stuff with as ironic as that is) that everything is Good and for and from Love is NOT something they’re going to want to look into. 

Lets say you’re in a family that deal with a lot of psychological issues. They are hell heant on believing that these issues are issues in the brain and it’s all chemicals in the brain. They are hell bent on believing the mind and the brain are the same thing. They have an emotional vestige involved because it’s part of their story. Don’t be surprised if not only they do not accept it, but they demonize you for saying this stuff and bring up entire moral arguments and shoot this thing down and yell at you. 

I certainly wouldn’t call myself and my verbal communications authentic. My written communication is very different for how I verbally interact because I feel a lot safer, it’s always been a medium I can collect myself more and be more clear. I wouldn’t say I’m authentic in my speech and outer actions at all. 

I just don’t really like talking about it that much on the forum here because people tend use that as a tool to make projections about time because they feel they all of a sudden feel they know me. 

[Nahm]

@Paul92 Tell me how “surely it is”, and you’ll have your answer.  

[Commodent]

I've often found that if people are not able to relate to what I'm saying, it's because my words are not grounded in direct experience. I'm certain, if you told people exactly what you wrote right here most people would be able to see where you're coming from. Because it's real and honest. Sure, you might enjoy going philosophical, but in that realm you might have a harder time finding people who sympathize with your ideas.

[Paul92]

@Nahm Well, surely it is his experience as an understander. I don't understand nuclear fission. Maybe you do. We are both understanders. I don't understand, but you do. 

 

Edit: for the record I do kinda get nuclear fission ??

Edited July 14, 2019 by Paul92

[Inliytened1]

@Commodent people stuck in the materialist paradigm are gonna demonize spirituality/idealism.  My own wife does not like me even mentioning it.  Because it threatens their worldview. Or they just flat out think you are crazy.

The problem is that idealism isn't mainstream yet.  Maybe in a few hundred years many many more people will awake and there will be more of a collective open mind.  But in today's times it's shunned - just like Galileo was shunned in his day.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Inliytened1

[tedens]

If psychedelics would be legal and in common use all material paradigm would just do ...puff.

[Nahm]

@Paul92 You kind of repeated the same thing. I mean, literally tell me how you know his direct experience is that he is ‘an understander’...and you would have your answer.  

[Sempiternity]

1 hour ago, ajasatya said:

@kieranperez Truth cannot be appreciated by an agitated mind. You need to take care of the earthly matters first. This is why it works for monks... they hack themselves into contentment by letting go of material success. Only a detached mind can be the soil for proper spiritual inquiry.

This is why I gave up all possessions, comfort, friends, family, relationships, sex, comfort foods, internet, social life, attachment to my looks, caring what other people think. Constantly shedding, letting go of attachments. Just to be able to be clear enough, an open space, for an Awakening to be able to be realized. 

Edited July 14, 2019 by Jed Vassallo

[kieranperez]

@Jed Vassallo good but understand that’s not most peoples process. When I say detached I mean detachment and healing from unconscious shame, guilt, projections, etc. and a lot of that really needs to be and can only be addressed not through outer actions but through inner work, often through a facilitator like therapist or something. Attachments are not an outer problem. It’s an inner. 

[Commodent]

@Inliytened1  Yes, it's risky business. But it's very fun when you actually talk about these things and there happen to be people with similar interests. That's often the start of a great friendship.

[tedens]

@kieranperez I will tell once again.

As long as the materialism paradigm does not make a pouffe, people will not respect each other.

[Paul92]

@Nahm hmmm. Don't wanna hijack this thread, but sure would be good to have a chat with you again some time. ?

[Nahm]

@Paul92    The division, threatening people, and creating debate, is one’s own creation, one’s own doing in perception. Word’s, often the word “it”, is used like a shelf we put the responsibility of examining direct experience on. As in, “not me...it”. Examining the “it” is examining one’s own perspective, a big step closer to Truth, and a huge step in the ‘elimination’ of suffering, specifically anger and triggers. 

The frustration about “talking about it“ is actually a thought story about talking about “it” (something not me), and a sensation saying “this view is not True” (because “it”, is you, and “it” is love). In misunderstanding the sensation, the sensation gets labeled “anger”. The non-sense (Thought story & misunderstood sensation) gets reinforced. In believing in this falseness, from misunderstanding, the anger & frustration are experience (created) over & over again. 

Essentially, this hands the helm over to an “it”, and that does not feel good because it is not actually possible / true. “It’s” a denial of Self. “It” doesn’t resonate, because you are truth. When “it” is realized to be a thought, the triggering is no longer possible / created. 

A chat sound great. Traveling a lot lately, hit me up mid week.