Finally Playing Devils Advocate

[kieranperez]

NOTE: I AM NOT SAYING LEO IS WRONG NOR FULL OF SHIT. I DO NOT KNOW. IF ITS NOT IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE I DO NOT KNOW. I HAVE NO STAKE OTHER THAN WANTING DIRECTLY EXPERIENCE WHAT IS ACTUALLY TRUE. 

These questions aren’t directly geared towards @Leo Gura, however some are.

I also want to be clear that I do think miracles are totally possible. I think collective healing, levitating, the highest reported siddhis, etc. are definitely a thing. I treat them as separate from enlightenment as you can meet people who have some of these highest siddhis but I certainly wouldn’t call them more enlightened than anyone else. Liberation and enlightenment is a different ball game from altered states and “higher” experiences as far as I’m concerned. The latter is still all relative, however cosmic and “god-like” they seem. 

The Video Camera Test: 

This is more of a general question... why is it that when I take a Psychedelic and experience hallucinations that are as unreal and as much an illusion as anything else that exists (which is relative) that if I take out a video camera adhd record myself I don’t see what I saw? What does that say? After all, everything occurs in me subjectively, so why wouldn’t it be consistent? 

Further, let’s say I was a schizophrenic and I had those imaginary people who “other ordinary people” would tell me isn’t real. However, idealism and relative dualism goes, that technically is real for me because I’m the source of everything that comes into my experiences. But if I take a video camera and film my imaginary friend, would I see him/her/it on the screen? If not, what does that reveal?

Leo “Tapping Into Collective Consciousness”: 

Once again, I want to be clear - I’m not saying Leo is full of shit. I don’t know and I’m merely playing devils advocate since I ordinarily tend to agree with Leo 99% of the time.

Leo why is that if you tap into collective consciousness, I or most other people don’t notice anything? 

If you perform something like this and it doesn’t yield any results at all, can you really still say that you actually did it? Assuming the case that it didn’t yield results (and hey, maybe it did), that’s like saying I closed my eyes and visualized talking to a girl doing pickup and fucked her “in the real world” (don’t get pedantic - you know what I mean) when really I was just sitting at home in my bed going through the notions in my mind’s eye and calling it the real thing. 

Again, I don’t doubt the existence of such high end miracles. However, if we wanna know if someone can really heal someone, have that person perform the miracle and we’ll see the results. If we wanna see a yogi walk on water, we can go out and watch him walk on water (as we shit our pants). If we read someone’s mind successfully, we can report it. Not that far from science really. 

[Nahm]

Siddhis aren’t ‘higher states’, it’s what mind does naturally when calmed for the duration (transpires in no-mind / “not-individual-mind”). 

1 hour ago, kieranperez said:

If not, what does that reveal?

Your thought story, and that there is a sensation to be tapped into. You can go to Reiki classes and see for yourself that we are capable of healing ourselves. These thought stories function preventatively relative to doing that. Make that jump.

 

[kieranperez]

14 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Siddhis aren’t ‘higher states’, it’s what mind does naturally when calmed for the duration (transpires in no-mind / “not-individual-mind”). 

This is both a yes and no. I can show you many deeply enlightened people who are genuinely realized but don’t have any siddhis because a lot of that comes from a variety of things. Whether it’s training in certain types of yoga, occult, etc.

Those don’t have to do with enlightenent as those are still experience. Being in a state of no mind is different from grasping the true of mind which is to say there literally is no mind. Being in a state of infinite spce is different from grasping the absolute nature of space which is that space itself does not exist. Relative experiences and states are not enlightenment. 

Let me know if I read your comment right though.

Edited July 13, 2019 by kieranperez

[Tetcher]

That is going full circle, first you start psychedelics and you're blown away by what reality is but then you start to wonder to what extent you're being hallucinatory and come to rediscover the value of the scientific process and why it first emerged from a more mystical culture.

[kieranperez]

3 minutes ago, Tetcher said:

That is going full circle, first you start psychedelics and you're blown away by what reality is but then you start to wonder to what extent you're being hallucinatory and come to rediscover the value of the scientific process and why it first emerged from a more mystical culture.

That is not what I’m talking about at all.

[Preetom]

All these woo woo stuff will always be speculative and open to doubt and debate.

Thank god enlightenment/truth has nothing to do with these fancy things. It is only to do with one's own very existence. And fortunately, neither a camera nor other people are required to recognize the truth of that.

[Nahm]

43 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

This is both a yes and no. I can show you many deeply enlightened people who are genuinely realized but don’t have any siddhis because a lot of that comes from a variety of things. Whether it’s training in certain types of yoga, occult, etc.

Those don’t have to do with enlightenent as those are still experience. Being in a state of no mind is different from grasping the true of mind which is to say there literally is no mind. Being in a state of infinite spce is different from grasping the absolute nature of space which is that space itself does not exist. Relative experiences and states are not enlightenment. 

Let me know if I read your comment right though.

No, opposite direction.  (Not implying there’s anything wrong with that.) Basically I’m not talking about people and stories, rather making the plea not to wait, but to see. 

[kieranperez]

Have a feeling this thread isn’t gonna go anywhere lol

[ajasatya]

We are already "collective consciousness". You can't tap into it because a knife can't cut itself and a tooth can't bite itself. You can just become aware of what you already are.

[Aakash]

@kieranperez let me dilute the mods words for you 

you can only do it after enlightenment, so it is not seperate to non-dual enlightenment (that you assume to be "enlightenment") it is the practical use of enlightenment rather than staying in a brain-dead state (non dual enlightenment) for lack of a better term.   

Edited July 13, 2019 by Aakash

[kieranperez]

10 minutes ago, Aakash said:

you can only do it after enlightenment, so it is not seperate to non-dual enlightenment (that you assume to be "enlightenment") it is the practical use of enlightenment rather than staying in a brain-dead state (non dual enlightenment) for lack of a better term.   

Except that just isn’t how it is in practice. Not to mention just flat out wrong. 

You can meet PLENTY of enlightened people who reached siddhis prior to their enlightenment. 

You can meet plenty of people who are totally liberated but have no siddhis. 

I have friends who have very profound paranormal abilities and I certainly wouldn’t call them more enlightened than anyone else I see on the streets.

Of course in the end, there are no people, world, realty, nor I. 

[Aakash]

11 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

You can meet PLENTY of enlightened people who reached siddhis prior to their enlightenment.

we are talking about conscious creation, not 'one-offs' 

out of interest please state who such beings are, i would be interesting in investigating this. I have yet to see any enlightened beings with material siddhis. 

11 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

You can meet plenty of people who are totally liberated but have no siddhis. 

I have friends who have very profound paranormal abilities and I certainly wouldn’t call them more enlightened than anyone else I see on the streets.

Of course in the end, there are no people, world, realty, nor I. 

LOL i can garuntee you that its impossible to understand the natures of siddhis without being enlightened. Whether they have paranormal abilities or not, such abilities are useless because you filter them through a false interpretation of separate self. 

Hence the difference between unconscious siddhis and conscious siddhis 

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Aakash

[Nahm]

43 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Have a feeling this thread isn’t gonna go anywhere lol

It’s because the perspective is false as it’s rooted in objective materialism.  You are reality, you are not physical and ‘in’ reality. 

What you can experience has zero to do with any ‘proof’ in what is seen and heard / what people say and do. 

Asking from falsity, all answers are unsatisfying.  One can not satisfy a thought story, satisfaction is sensation.  Thought separated from sensation is unsatisfying non-sense. 

[kieranperez]

5 minutes ago, Aakash said:

out of interest please state who such beings are, i would be interesting in investigating this. I have yet to see any enlightened beings with material siddhis. 

Om Swami, Swami Rama, Sadhguru, The Buddha, Milarepa, Adyashanti, etc. many Unenlightned Tibetan & Indian Tantrics & Occultists, etc.

I don’t know what you mean by “material siddhis”. Siddhis are not a material thing. 

9 minutes ago, Aakash said:

LOL i can garuntee you that its impossible to understand the natures of siddhis without being enlightened.

I don’t really care what you can promise. I’ve validated this in my own experience. So your beliefs are irrelevant. Both with myself and other people. Believe what you want. 

10 minutes ago, Aakash said:

Whether they have paranormal abilities or not, such abilities are useless because you filter them through a false interpretation of separate self. 

This is such an irrelevant point lol. You can say that about any experience “paranormal” or not. You could have someone levitate in front of large crowd in New York City and plenty of people can and still not believe it. You can have someone literally read your mind and you still dismiss it. You can meet profound clairvoyants as I have who are just ordinary people and others will still disbelieve it. 

[zeroISinfinity]

@kieranperez Just drop the mind already. 

Drop all Leo's teachings too(yes they are True but still concepts and still are not at highest point) go a step above that. 

Meditation is da wae. 

Growing convictions is not actuality. 

Edited July 13, 2019 by zeroISinfinity

[kieranperez]

1 minute ago, Nahm said:

It’s because the perspective is false as it’s rooted in objective materialism.

None of my questions were pointing towards a bias of objectivism nor materialism. If that’s how you’re reading it then you misunderstand the questions. Read the whole first post again.

2 minutes ago, Nahm said:

You are reality, you are not physical and ‘in’ reality. 

What you can experience has zero to do with any ‘proof’ in what is seen and heard / what people say and do. 

I was never asking for proof.

Fundamentally there is no reality. Dualistically the mind is reality. The Absolute nature of existence is nothing. No reality. No people. No world. No other. No I. No mind. No experience. 

[Aakash]

10 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Om Swami, Swami Rama, Sadhguru, The Buddha, Milarepa, Adyashanti, etc. many Unenlightned Tibetan & Indian Tantrics & Occultists, etc.

interesting lol, what siddhis can adyashanti do, i will check this out 

Yes, its possible through a method to elevate your consciousness levels or by pass consciousness systems and access mana streams i.e elements (light, dark, fire, water ,etc.. etc..) 

I guess i'm going to have to redefine my contextualise words of siddhis, i'll look around at classifying them with the names you've given. But the truth still remains, if you want to do it yourself consciously you need to become enlightened imo. 

10 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

I don’t really care what you can promise. I’ve validated this in my own experience. So your beliefs are irrelevant. Both with myself and other people. Believe what you want. 

Isn't that the whole point of life, to create relative beliefs 

10 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

This is such an irrelevant point lol. You can say that about any experience “paranormal” or not. You could have someone levitate in front of large crowd in New York City and plenty of people can and still not believe it. You can have someone literally read your mind and you still dismiss it. You can meet profound clairvoyants as I have who are just ordinary people and others will still disbelieve it. 

You misunderstood what i said, i said the person with the paranormal ability will interpret it incorrectly. but you added a good point, the person who the interpretation is done for will themselves interpret it wrong as well lol. 

hence the term: unconscious siddhis 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Aakash

[kieranperez]

Can we close this post. This is turning into another waste of time and is becoming another wasted post

[kieranperez]

5 minutes ago, Aakash said:

Isn't that the whole point of life, to create relative beliefs 

Good god. Fucking no lol. It actually isn’t and I hope you work on tossing that nonsense lol

[Aakash]

@kieranperez No we are going to get to the bottom of this! 

what do you find difficult about what i said? this is an interesting thread for people to learn from! 

i've already learnt so much from you!