Following The Tao To Be Here Now?

[reflectivist]

I hope this isn't too abstract, religious or philosophical for this charter. Having in the past explored different approaches to self-discovery,  I'm wondering about how Taoism as a path to self-realization fits into the scheme of things.

While Taoism seems a like a viable path to enlightenment, it requires constant attention, following something elusive - the Tao, instead of total permanent enlightenment.  Does that imply effort is required after enlightenment, to eternally chase something elusive, or can one be eternally self-realized? Lao Tzu seems to hint at a permanent self-realization when he said "when nothing is done, nothing is left undone", but other writings seem like it is more like a chase.

The effort required by Taoism seems like Ekhart Tolle's diligence to remain in the moment, but very different from Buddhism's notion of total  permanent enlightenment or becoming the clear and shining void.  Just wondering if there are any insights about this.

[WelcometoReality]

@reflectivist I don't know anything about taoism but parts of the same teaching can sometimes seem contradictory. That is because that these different parts are true at different times in the enlightenment journey. 

The quote you are refering to seem to point to the "final" stage of enlightenment where ego has fully fallen away.

The chase is more when ego is trying to get enlightened.

The constant attention phase is when the first realization has been made and ego is trying to get back in control.

[askdfjnak]

The effort you are talking about is a manifestation of the Tao to recognize itself. This is only realized after the realization though, it's a paradox.

I love the Tao te ching.

 

[charlie2dogs]

1 hour ago, Mutupo said:

The effort you are talking about is a manifestation of the Tao to recognize itself. This is only realized after the realization though, it's a paradox.

I love the Tao te ching.

 

No method, no philosophy, no spiritual practice can make you become self realized, they just lead you around by the nose until your consciousness awakens enough to see the reality of itself and what it has become as the human identity.  Once self realized you realize that none of this stuff is really needed at all, it just keeps you moving toward an objective of becoming more than a human being and discovering the realities of your consciousness and the identity body you created

[askdfjnak]

@charlie2dogs Yes, the Tao te Ching covers all that.

@reflectivist Coming back to your question about effort and permanent realization:

6 hours ago, reflectivist said:

it requires constant attention, following something elusive - the Tao, instead of total permanent enlightenment.  Does that imply effort is required after enlightenment, to eternally chase something elusive, or can one be eternally self-realized? Lao Tzu seems to hint at a permanent self-realization when he said "when nothing is done, nothing is left undone"

"Free from desire, you realize the mystery

Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations"

Desire is a product of living egoistically.

Right now you view effort as a kind of burden right? That's why it's quite off putting to be told that constant effort is required. You desire non-effort so you will only see the manifestations of effort. That is, you will be all consumed by the psychosomatic response your body and mind goes through when you are engaged in something that requires effort. You will be constantly preoccupied with the outcomes of your effort as well.

Let's say you sit down for a 5 hour strong determination sit. It will be hell for you because your desires will become all consuming when your legs and back start aching, or you get hungry and bored.

After full enlightenment, when there is no longer an ego and therefore no longer any desires the sit will just be a flux of impersonal experiences (manifestations) and you will realize the mystery of the invisible immutable substrate (the Tao) in which all these manifestations are arising and passing.

So after enlightenment there is effort but there is nobody left to suffer the effort. Realization is permanent but effort can arise and pass.

There are in between stages. I'm interested to see Leo's video on the stages of the enlightenment.

I like this video. Work, for the sake of work is a fantastic way of grinding down the ego.

 

[Azrael]

12 hours ago, reflectivist said:

I'm wondering about how Taoism as a path to self-realization fits into the scheme of things.

In my understanding this is one of the fastest ways and I think you got something wrong here when saying one needs effort to stay on the Taoist way. I'd rather look at it as the fool that just lets himself swim by the stream of life, kindly playing with the water. While seeing everyone else trying to get in the other direction (up the water) and not only drowning but being really unhappy trying this.

The Taoist - in my understanding - has fully realized that there is no difference between him and his surroundings and that these surroundings really make him as he is. If you get this down, it not only is quite a release to see but also complete peace to have.

And you don't need to be consciously ever-present to follow this, because you are ever-present in every situation anyway. If you think, that happens now. If you do something, that happens. Whatever you do, that happens now and can only happen now. The Taoist's attitude is to see that and relax a little bit into the situation and intuitively manage his life.

It's a really beautiful approach - in my view - and it brought me so far the best results on my own journey. Because, ask yourself this: When will you accept that seeking enlightenment won't bring it to you and start embodying it's principles? If you do that, it seems to naturally manifests in your life more and more.