Not-self (anatta) vs. depersonalization disorder

[Libiin]

Hi,

Depersonalization disorder is described in the DSM-V as “Experiences of unreality, detachment, or being an outside observer with respect to one’s thoughts, feelings, sensations, body, or actions (e.g., perceptual alterations, distorted sense of time, unreal or absent self, emotional and/or physical numbing).” This doesn’t sound very different from the experiences of not-self or anatta I’ve heard. A main difference I find is that people with depersonalization disorder have a hard time dealing with these sensations, and often leads to anxiety and depression, while in meditation, you’re supposed to accept it and, moreover, it’s related to wisdom and happiness.

1) Do you think that the sensations experimented in both conditions (depersonalization disorder vs. dissolution of the self through meditation and insight) are essentially the same but the main difference is how people perceive them (as a “bad” vs. “good” thing)?

2) If they are indeed the same, I find it confusing that the depersonalization disorder usually arises in difficult situations (intense stress, trauma…), while in meditation it’s the opposite. How could it be? Would it be a brain mechanism to cope with kind of extremes?

3) If they are indeed the same, would you expect that through cultivating acceptance, people with depersonalization disorder would, in a way, achieve deep insights? I guess the “usual” way looks something like first training your mind to be in the present and accepting your experience, and only when it’s already at least a bit trained, you get the experience of anatta, but could you say that in this case the flowchart is kind of inverted (first not-self and then acceptance)?

Related question but about schizophrenia:

4) Schizophrenia patients often feel that they are not the ones moving their body or the ones thinking their thoughts, but rather someone else is doing it for them. Again, how do you see the relationship (similarities and dissimilarities) between this and anatta, when you also perceive that you’re not the thinker of your thoughts (a part that you don’t think that someone else is creating them)?

Bonus question:

5) As a neuroscience student, I’m very interested in the neural basis of such experiences. If anyone has a clue on what to expect comparing, for example, depersonalization disorder patients vs. expert meditators who experience dissolution of the self, I’d greatly appreciate it.

Metta,

[winterknight]

14 minutes ago, Libiin said:

Hi,

Depersonalization disorder is described in the DSM-V as “Experiences of unreality, detachment, or being an outside observer with respect to one’s thoughts, feelings, sensations, body, or actions (e.g., perceptual alterations, distorted sense of time, unreal or absent self, emotional and/or physical numbing).” This doesn’t sound very different from the experiences of not-self or anatta I’ve heard. A main difference I find is that people with depersonalization disorder have a hard time dealing with these sensations, and often leads to anxiety and depression, while in meditation, you’re supposed to accept it and, moreover, it’s related to wisdom and happiness.

1) Do you think that the sensations experimented in both conditions (depersonalization disorder vs. dissolution of the self through meditation and insight) are essentially the same but the main difference is how people perceive them (as a “bad” vs. “good” thing)?

2) If they are indeed the same, I find it confusing that the depersonalization disorder usually arises in difficult situations (intense stress, trauma…), while in meditation it’s the opposite. How could it be? Would it be a brain mechanism to cope with kind of extremes?

3) If they are indeed the same, would you expect that through cultivating acceptance, people with depersonalization disorder would, in a way, achieve deep insights? I guess the “usual” way looks something like first training your mind to be in the present and accepting your experience, and only when it’s already at least a bit trained, you get the experience of anatta, but could you say that in this case the flowchart is kind of inverted (first not-self and then acceptance)?

Related question but about schizophrenia:

4) Schizophrenia patients often feel that they are not the ones moving their body or the ones thinking their thoughts, but rather someone else is doing it for them. Again, how do you see the relationship (similarities and dissimilarities) between this and anatta, when you also perceive that you’re not the thinker of your thoughts (a part that you don’t think that someone else is creating them)?

Bonus question:

5) As a neuroscience student, I’m very interested in the neural basis of such experiences. If anyone has a clue on what to expect comparing, for example, depersonalization disorder patients vs. expert meditators who experience dissolution of the self, I’d greatly appreciate it.

Metta,

1. There's definitely some connection, but the relevant differences go beyond sensations and even judgment of good or bad into context. An example might be the difference between when a random person sees a cobra vs. a scientist who studies snakes. In both cases they see a snake, and maybe even both feel some fear, but the whole context of the knowledge in the second case is very different.

2. When fear becomes extreme, some people are able to let go in a way they otherwise wouldn't, and the letting go is probably what enables a certain kind of quietness of mind that's interpreted as depersonalization.

3. It's not really about cultivating acceptance, really, probably, but curiosity. They would be ripe to become seekers, likely, and maybe would make progress quickly.

4. Not the same. The anatta is seeing that the you is false, not that you're here and an alien force is controlling your mind.

[Leo Gura]

The key difference is that the awake person is conscious that he is God. The depersonalized person is not.

The depersonalized person also is not conscious enough to see how he is assigning negative meaning to no-self and no-meaning.

No-self is not what people think it is. No-self is only half the story. The other half is Cosmic Self.

The depresonalized person is missing consciousness of the Love of God.

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Libiin said:

Hi,

Depersonalization disorder

It’s not a helpful stage setter to label it a disorder. There’s a false assumption right outta the gate.

is described in the DSM-V as “Experiences of unreality

There is no experience of unreality. Another misleading precursor. 

, detachment, or being an outside observer with respect to one’s thoughts, feelings, sensations, body, or actions (e.g., perceptual alterations, distorted sense of time, unreal or absent self

There’s no unreal or absent self to directly experience either. 

, emotional and/or physical numbing).” This doesn’t sound very different from the experiences of not-self or anatta I’ve heard. A main difference I find is that people with depersonalization disorder

Might sound semantical, but it’s all the difference, there are not people in the sense of individual entities, of which an actual property of ‘disorder’ could accurately be applied. Experiential convincing, helpful in planning a course of treatment / help, just not actual.

have a hard time dealing with these sensations, and often leads to anxiety and depression,

Anxiety & depression are not sensations, there is a thought story believed at play - the key is separating them.

while in meditation, you’re supposed to accept it and, moreover, it’s related to wisdom and happiness.

It would not be wise to accept the misunderstanding of the mixing of the thought story and sensation, nor are people who do this typically “happy”. It is the very cloud in the actual sky if you will / apparent preventer of Happiness / Self.

1) Do you think that the sensations experimented in both conditions (depersonalization disorder vs. dissolution of the self through meditation and insight) are essentially the same but the main difference is how people perceive them (as a “bad” vs. “good” thing)?

If a “people perceive them” it is neither of those. 

2) If they are indeed the same, I find it confusing that the depersonalization disorder usually arises in difficult situations (intense stress, trauma…), while in meditation it’s the opposite. How could it be? Would it be a brain mechanism to cope with kind of extremes?

It is similar to there being a threshold of pain, and then shock/no pain. It is actually possible, because there is not actually a “person in there”  second entity wise. It’s quite ‘normal’. 

3) If they are indeed the same, would you expect that through cultivating acceptance, people with depersonalization disorder would, in a way, achieve deep insights?

The “person” is inherently not accepting that there is no person already, so no. The focus is already on falsity. That is not the empty cup for insights.

I guess the “usual” way looks something like first training your mind to be in the present and accepting your experience, and only when it’s already at least a bit trained, you get the experience of anatta, but could you say that in this case the flowchart is kind of inverted (first not-self and then acceptance)?

You’re underestimating the actuality of no self. None of that is occurring at all, nor is there a self and object which could be ‘accepted’. 

Related question but about schizophrenia:

4) Schizophrenia patients often feel that they are not the ones moving their body or the ones thinking their thoughts, but rather someone else is doing it for them. Again, how do you see the relationship (similarities and dissimilarities) between this and anatta, when you also perceive that you’re not the thinker of your thoughts (a part that you don’t think that someone else is creating them)?

It’s not that someone else is doing it, it’s that they are so attached to the idea of self that actual self carries a notion of being somebody else. 

Bonus question:

5) As a neuroscience student, I’m very interested in the neural basis of such experiences. If anyone has a clue on what to expect comparing, for example, depersonalization disorder patients vs. expert meditators who experience dissolution of the self, I’d greatly appreciate it.

One is a self imposed suffering, the other is bliss and does not have a neural basis. 

Meta

 

[Forestluv]

@Libiin For me, the subjective experience of depersonalization feels disconnected. It is a type of self awareness trying to separate from the personality structure and body. It’s a fragmented self. For example, to seek relief from an uncomfortable experience/memory. In contrast, “not self” is an expanded consciousness intimately connected to everything: trees, birds, wind, barking dogs, cars etc. This expanded consciousness  would also include thoughts / feelings within the mind/body if they arose. Yet there is no identification/attachment, so such thoughts/feelings would have no more relevance than bird chirps. 

[Gadasaa]

Depersonalization is totally different than No-self. I believe i'm a credible source when it comes to discussing about DP. Because, I've suffered from Depersonalization for over 13 years. It's a result of excessive stress. When i was thirteen years old, I started to have panic attacks out of nowhere. I was having at least 2 to 3 panic attacks per day for six months ( i was taken to hospital and stayed there during all that time) and no one knew what was happening to me. At the time, in Mongolia, no doctor knew about psychology nor cared about it. So, basically they thought that something was very wrong with my brain. It was too much for a young developing mind and I got into full-blown fight or flight mode. I started to think and worry about my own death 24/7. Too much thinking and stress took a toll on me and began to cause Depersonalization 24/7, which was really scary feeling. One day, i remember looking at my two hands and rubbing them together, thinking to myself, are they my hands? because it felt like i had rubber gloves on which was preventing me from completely feeling the skin of my hands. It was so frustrating. As the disorder progressed, it made me even more anxious and in turn, more anxiety cause even more DP. Everything became lifeless, 2 dimensional, and unreal. Imagine looking at life through a computer screen 24/7. Life was magical and wonderful for me before all of it happened. Depersonalization equals a brain that's too too too tired from thinking, and got depersonalized and thinking that it can cure the condition by thinking even more. Of course it never works because thinking, itself is the cause of the problem. And, the vicious circle goes on until you get the luck to learn about it.  

Edited July 4, 2019 by Gadasaa

[Forestluv]

@Gadasaa Thank you for sharing your experience. I’m not an expert on the psychological classification of DP disorder. I was just sharing more of an imagination from my experience.

[Inliytened1]

This has been explained here before it's what Leo stated.  

[Enlightenment]

I've experienced both. They are totally different, almost like the opposite. 

Depersonalization feels like this:

Ego death is more like this:

9 hours ago, Libiin said:

5) As a neuroscience student, I’m very interested in the neural basis of such experiences. If anyone has a clue on what to expect comparing, for example, depersonalization disorder patients vs. expert meditators who experience dissolution of the self, I’d greatly appreciate it.

Search for Posterior cingulate cortex, insula, Default Mode Network, Gamma brain wave coherence 

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Enlightenment