Effective & Advanced Vipassana/Self Inquiry Guide For Stream Entry

[ValiantSalvatore]

9 hours ago, ardacigin said:

Okay so the profound relaxation I've experienced was almost DEFINITELY the catalyst for this experience I had 4 days ago lying down. I've validated it for myself yesterday.

 I thought to myself yesterday: 'Let me do the same insight practice again'.

As Culadasa says whenever one finds an entry point to insight, repeat the process prior to insight exactly as as it occured and try to replicate the same openness, awareness and equanimity. 

So yesterday, I sat down. Meditated for about 30 mins again. Felt some discomfort. Not as much as 4 days ago but I was quite tired overall due to taxing SDS sits I do in the mornings. 

So I laid down again. Listening to some meditation related interview. Closed my eyes. Slowly I'm feeling sleepy just like 4 days ago. When I was just about to sleep, I've felt the exact quality of 'profound relaxation' and then it happened.

The same thing happened with slightly less intensity but more permanency. In fact, I've experienced a few hours of 'significant reduction in self'. (not a full-blown no-self)  

The no-self insight wasn't dramatic like 4 days ago but it still happened. It had the same EXACT quality to it. My external boundaries disappeared. This time I didn't fall asleep and spent the rest of the day in an elevated state of samadhi where my boundaries was VERY shaky and in touch with outside. I felt weird sensations at the top of my head (where I don't normally feel anything in meditation).

It is similar to how Leo says psychedelics are purifying his neurological circuits. He said how 5 meo Dmt creates moving and morphing sensations in his brain. I've experienced moving sensation at the top of my head for a few hours in daily life. (where crown chakra is said to be).

I felt like this was a VERY strong and deep purification. In fact, I was going to write another article today explaining this partial insight penetration but I wanted to wait until some more dramatical insight occurs. It took hours for it to die down slightly. And today, I still feel its 'no-boundary' open awareness effects. But the concentration quality of this experience is mostly over. 

And I'm pretty sure this is not stream entry. I'll know when this realization gets permanent and radical. But so far so good, hopefully, I'll have another cool insight in a few days.  

I'm shocked to experience such dramatic openings happening almost on a daily basis. Stage 7 and beyond practice is insane. It is like I'm seriously tripping. Not some access concentration. 

Culadasa said that when you are in Stage 7-8-9, it is VERY unlikely to go through these stages without any profound insight experiences. He basically says that a meditator will at least have one partial but dramatic insight penetration on these stages.

I didn't think that I was going to have these insights. I didn't think that my concentration and awareness was enough. I was also a little worried.

I thought: 'Well, maybe I'll experience them once. Or maybe not. But it doesn't feel like I will. Some people just get stream entry right away. Maybe I'll be one of them. Or maybe I'll never get enlightened.'

And to my surprise, I've experienced 2 insights in the last 5 days. (With relatively replicable processes).

My mind is blown. Everything is going too smoothly. I'm pretty sure I'll hit a frustrating dead end really soon. Or maybe stream entry is coming.

My practice is getting really interesting at this point. I've mostly stopped spending time doing hobbies and whatnot. Just full on meditation as much as I can.  

@ardaciginThanks again for the insights ! I read the post a couple of times and it convinced me definitely to buy the book of Culadasa I never watched or read anything from him. I have heard of the book though.

Also, about thinking to replicate how a state of absorption was reached is very interesting ! I'd love to respond more, yet I am unsure if it would be helpful, also to others in this thread.

I know that it is possible from one "case" that in 5 years a no-self  steady state is possible becoming a stream-enterer, shinzen told me via the life pratice programm, that there are lots of them, so I was a bit disappointed but happy, that there is a way to achieve no-self. A couple of days later a guy who joins the life pratice program regulary talked with shinzen about some stuff, he achieved no-self IIRC with a 90 min practice in 5 years. That seems like it is stable. There was no talk around a peak experience anymore he daily life sounded quite intense I could imagine a bodhisattvalives like this. ( I think I saw some bodhisattva's when I lived in China)

I am now 4 years in with a 1h meditation pratice for the majority of the time (3 1/2 years). I had some off days after 3 years, yet I praticed everyday for 3 years. But between the 3 and 4 year I missed a whole month+ because I was just mad at the practice and life in general. So, that was not so good. Anyway, hope this gives some clarity for your path in some way. (In total I have about 25-30 days of retreat practice, this year alone 6 days). Mostly the home pratice programm from shinzen, as well as  zen retreats in a soto zen tradition. Which was shinzen approved that it is not a cult. So.... I still want to be wary of all of this. It's not that easy imo, a bit more easy when it there are sexual scandals or suciceds etc. 

After reading the post of yours it reminded me that I had a couple more of these high-states of relaxation I went into the white light and my boundary of my perceived internal self disappered and everything felt vast, as if I observe with a pasive stance in shinzens paradigm. So, I'll just take in with open eyes for e.g what ever happens, but I don't focus for e.g with see out on a single point, but more on the vastness of the area. So, the dynamics of input streams worked differently and the object and stance of focus is different.

So, I went into these and I was also not sure if I feel asleep or if I am in a high-state of relaxation, I saw the white light at least 4-5 times or more, before I drifted off into sleepiness because I was very tired, yet it felt so amazingly fking good. Like I just marched 50km and had a enlightenment experience, the example is a bit over the top, but I hope it explains the experience a bit more. I was forced into rest because of exhaustion for some reason. Not sure if this was in a retreat. 

If I may be so free and voice my opinion, if you have a lot of free time currently ( which I wasted in the past) and this is your favorite thing to do, I would shoot for a 7-10 day home retreat a couple of times, if you can do that. I did one over a weekend but it was more reactionary because of a kriya experience and I wanted to validate things and went a bit cray.... Yet, with such an intense pratice you can build a nice structure and potentially reach no-self very fast. In 4 - 3 years. I don't doubt it, yet I don't know anyone else who has done it faster than 5 years besides that one case. So, wish you the best and much success !

Edited July 5, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[Jordan94]

18 hours ago, Arnold666 said:

Before you sit on the cusion, do this: 10 second in breath, 20 second out breath, than on the 20 take a deep in for 2 seconds, than let it go for 2 seconds. Now sit and count to 40. At 40 take a deep breath in for 2 seconds and let it out for 2 seconds, than again, hold the breath for 40 seconds. So its 10-20-40-40. Do this for 15 minutes, with shambhavi mudra(looking at the 3 eye) and zbang motherfucker, you are in samatha jhana 4th like a pro. And now you can get to some true inner work like a true zenplaya. 

P.S. it will be hard at first to do the pranayama but you will get good at it, fast, especially when you will see that as soon as you are out of breath, gasping for air, immediately you have no mind. Mind is gone. You will dig it. So fuck the discomfort for air, finaly, instantly, no mind, at your comand.

That's really interesting too

I've already been thinking about doing some breath work prior to meditation to ease and improve concentration but never went deep to it

What's your thoughts on that @ardacigin and others ?

[ardacigin]

7 hours ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

@ardaciginThanks again for the insights ! I read the post a couple of times and it convinced me definitely to buy the book of Culadasa I never watched or read anything from him. I have heard of the book though.

Also, about thinking to replicate how a state of absorption was reached is very interesting ! I'd love to respond more, yet I am unsure if it would be helpful, also to others in this thread.

I know that it is possible from one "case" that in 5 years a no-self  steady state is possible becoming a stream-enterer, shinzen told me via the life pratice programm, that there are lots of them, so I was a bit disappointed but happy, that there is a way to achieve no-self. A couple of days later a guy who joins the life pratice program regulary talked with shinzen about some stuff, he achieved no-self IIRC with a 90 min practice in 5 years. That seems like it is stable. There was no talk around a peak experience anymore he daily life sounded quite intense I could imagine a bodhisattvalives like this. ( I think I saw some bodhisattva's when I lived in China)

I am now 4 years in with a 1h meditation pratice for the majority of the time (3 1/2 years). I had some off days after 3 years, yet I praticed everyday for 3 years. But between the 3 and 4 year I missed a whole month+ because I was just mad at the practice and life in general. So, that was not so good. Anyway, hope this gives some clarity for your path in some way. (In total I have about 25-30 days of retreat practice, this year alone 6 days). Mostly the home pratice programm from shinzen, as well as  zen retreats in a soto zen tradition. Which was shinzen approved that it is not a cult. So.... I still want to be wary of all of this. It's not that easy imo, a bit more easy when it there are sexual scandals or suciceds etc. 

After reading the post of yours it reminded me that I had a couple more of these high-states of relaxation I went into the white light and my boundary of my perceived internal self disappered and everything felt vast, as if I observe with a pasive stance in shinzens paradigm. So, I'll just take in with open eyes for e.g what ever happens, but I don't focus for e.g with see out on a single point, but more on the vastness of the area. So, the dynamics of input streams worked differently and the object and stance of focus is different.

So, I went into these and I was also not sure if I feel asleep or if I am in a high-state of relaxation, I saw the white light at least 4-5 times or more, before I drifted off into sleepiness because I was very tired, yet it felt so amazingly fking good. Like I just marched 50km and had a enlightenment experience, the example is a bit over the top, but I hope it explains the experience a bit more. I was forced into rest because of exhaustion for some reason. Not sure if this was in a retreat. 

If I may be so free and voice my opinion, if you have a lot of free time currently ( which I wasted in the past) and this is your favorite thing to do, I would shoot for a 7-10 day home retreat a couple of times, if you can do that. I did one over a weekend but it was more reactionary because of a kriya experience and I wanted to validate things and went a bit cray.... Yet, with such an intense pratice you can build a nice structure and potentially reach no-self very fast. In 4 - 3 years. I don't doubt it, yet I don't know anyone else who has done it faster than 5 years besides that one case. So, wish you the best and much success !

Wow. These are great insights. From what you've written, it definitely seems like you've experienced serious insights similar to mine. Great work!

Now continue deepening them with samadhi development. And I think Culadasa will be a great mentor for you.

And you are right. I'll definitely be planning some serious retreat time in the near future. Also I know how Shinzen accessed full-on permanent stream entry in his 4th year of practice.

Considering that most of us (including myself) are householders, we might limit ourselves and say: ' Well, if it took Shinzen 4 years, then who am I to make it in less than that time frame? I'm nowhere near meditating as much as or as intensely as monastics.'

This path is unpredictable and we should be open to anything. There are examples from non-meditators like Eckhart Tolle all of a sudden going from depression to enlightenment. And on the other hand, meditators who have their stream entry in their 30th year of meditation. 

Any period of time is a potential for deep transformation. I'm very much open for anything and I think every meditator should shift their mindset to 'Enlightenment is doable and It can happen at any moment as long as I do the practices. I just need to systematically train my nervous system and be open to whatever occurs.'

I think after the development of stable and sustained concentration, every meditator must SERIOUSLY set their intentions on awakening  

[ardacigin]

11 minutes ago, Jordan94 said:

That's really interesting too

I've already been thinking about doing some breath work prior to meditation to ease and improve concentration but never went deep to it

What's your thoughts on that @ardacigin and others ?

First of all, breath work is the meditation.

And pranayama sort of yogic practices (as explained by Arnold666) is definitely powerful. But these instructions would not allow the meditator to develop metacognitive, introspective and extrospective awareness. And those are how you experience deep and transformative insights.

Exclusive attention to the breath is a dead end as Culadasa talks about. The insight potential is limited and your awareness training takes a hit. Concentration-only practices can be dangerous. In fact, Culadasa warns people against these sort of practices.

Also, concentration only practices get mechanical after a while. In the beginning, strict instructions like these help develop skills, but once it restricts the meditator too much, it gets in the way of deeper jhanas and practices. 

Overall, it is good advice for people who wants to develop exclusive attention to the breath. But it is too mechanical and devoid of awareness practices to become a comprehensive guide for awakening.

 

Edited July 6, 2019 by ardacigin

[Jordan94]

2 hours ago, ardacigin said:

First of all, breath work is the meditation.

And pranayama sort of yogic practices (as explained by Arnold666) is definitely powerful. But these instructions would not allow the meditator to develop metacognitive, introspective and extrospective awareness. And those are how you experience deep and transformative insights.

Exclusive attention to the breath is a dead end as Culadasa talks about. The insight potential is limited and your awareness training takes a hit. Concentration-only practices can be dangerous. In fact, Culadasa warns people against these sort of practices.

Also, concentration only practices get mechanical after a while. In the beginning, strict instructions like these help develop skills, but once it restricts the meditator too much, it gets in the way of deeper jhanas and practices. 

Overall, it is good advice for people who wants to develop exclusive attention to the breath. But it is too mechanical and devoid of awareness practices to become a comprehensive guide for awakening.

Yea I was quite unprecise with what I meant

What i mean is not replace or change the main practice, but do a warmup of like 2-20 minutes of pranayama (or controling/slowing the breath or whatever) to slow the mind and get a little boost to the concentration, and then start the normal practice following culadasa's book

Especially for earlier stages for people like me who struggle with maintaining attention to the breath

[ValiantSalvatore]

4 hours ago, ardacigin said:

And you are right. I'll definitely be planning some serious retreat time in the near future. Also I know how Shinzen accessed full-on permanent stream entry in his 4th year of practice.

Yes, I heard the story in his audiobook I thought he went deeper, yet he said his sense of self vanished and never came back. Also, depending on the monastary I bet japan is more hardcore, they don't meditate as much for e.g I wanted to go for 2 months into a monastary to train and use the time as well as possible. Yet, in retrospect thy only meditate for 2h and 45min with 30 minutes kinhin entailed. So, it's not that much a 90 min SDS could potentially be better. Yet, they also enforce this a tiny bit there. Not sure if there is nothing to do I bet you can also just meditate there. Which was sometimes the case. Yet, they also run retreats so attending those is better where they have 4 sehssins or a rohtasu. For some intense pratice I heard they are tough.

4 hours ago, ardacigin said:

Any period of time is a potential for deep transformation. I'm very much open for anything and I think every meditator should shift their mindset to 'Enlightenment is doable and It can happen at any moment as long as I do the practices. I just need to systematically train my nervous system and be open to whatever occurs.'

Yes, my entire nervous system at least that is how it feels recalibrated itself after my kriya experience. That is how it feels like, I looked into how my nervous system is made up and in which parts of the body it is present. Yet, I want to re-visit that one thing I can tell is that it communicates with the brain because of the vagus nerve. 

 

Edited July 6, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[PenguinPablo]

99% of that pain is your mind's aversion. All this stretching, and aversive subconscioud thought patterns literally create the knots in your body while you sit, which shift from small discomforts to excruciating pain. Eventually once the mind understands this, it stops this aversive attitude and tensions stop being msde in the body.

[ardacigin]

2 hours ago, Jordan94 said:

Yea I was quite unprecise with what I meant

What i mean is not replace or change the main practice, but do a warmup of like 2-20 minutes of pranayama (or controling/slowing the breath or whatever) to slow the mind and get a little boost to the concentration, and then start the normal practice following culadasa's book

Especially for earlier stages for people like me who struggle with maintaining attention to the breath

Here is Culadasa's quote on concentration only practices: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheMindIlluminated/comments/9iosse/culadasa_i_strongly_discourage_concentrationonly/

Definitely give it a go if you are interested. But the moment you get dullness in the mind (due to concentration), expand the awareness and re-energize the mind.

[ardacigin]

7 hours ago, PenguinPablo said:

99% of that pain is your mind's aversion. All this stretching, and aversive subconscioud thought patterns literally create the knots in your body while you sit, which shift from small discomforts to excruciating pain. Eventually once the mind understands this, it stops this aversive attitude and tensions stop being msde in the body.

Right, and there is a stage of insight called 'equanimity' where this gets VERY pronounced. Not the average equanimity you have in meditation but as an experiential and profound equanimity towards both pleasure and pain. 

Most meditators mistake the subtle dullness in Culadasa's stages to the development of equanimity. Equanimity as a watershed experiential moment is WAAY deeper than that. People go through days and weeks of dark night type of experiences before reaching tranquility and equanimity. It is stage 9-10 in Culadasa's model.

It is tend to be the insight stage right before stream entry.

I'm only recently tapping into equanimity after having 2 of these insights. I've used to down-play equanimity now I see how important it is.

The equanimity Shinzen experienced in that retreat is qualitatively different than what a 2-3 year long meditator experiences in 60- 90 mins SDS. (Like I am  )

Just because we use the same word 'equanimity' to describe 'reductions in suffering' doesn't mean that equanimity as an insight don't have radically different degrees and depths. Kind of like how enlightenment is multi-layered.

 He probably had mindblowing levels of purification out of that experience. 

 

Edited July 6, 2019 by ardacigin

[Enlightenment]

45 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

Most meditators mistake the subtle dullness in Culadasa's stages to the development of equanimity.

Yea, this practice done in a proper way is like becoming ever more alert and calm at the same time until you reach perfect equanimity. 

[Jordan94]

On 06/07/2019 at 5:06 PM, ardacigin said:

Here is Culadasa's quote on concentration only practices: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheMindIlluminated/comments/9iosse/culadasa_i_strongly_discourage_concentrationonly/

Definitely give it a go if you are interested. But the moment you get dullness in the mind (due to concentration), expand the awareness and re-energize the mind.

Thanks that was really helpful and really what I needed actually

I think I was definitly going on the trap of over focusing on the attention and not puting enough emphasis on awareness

 

Now on the past few sessions I've put way more emphasis on awareness

By having some short moment of extrospective attention to the sounds and physical sensations, and by having some short moments of introspective attention checkin in and labelling

It feels like I have less amount of time of continuous attention on my breath though, because my attention is going around introspective and extrospective awareness (and distractions obviously) as well, but I guess it's normal ? and it feels like I have more control of my attention, and less risks of falling into mind wandering/forgetting

[ardacigin]

5 hours ago, Jordan94 said:

Thanks that was really helpful and really what I needed actually

I think I was definitly going on the trap of over focusing on the attention and not puting enough emphasis on awareness

 

Now on the past few sessions I've put way more emphasis on awareness

By having some short moment of extrospective attention to the sounds and physical sensations, and by having some short moments of introspective attention checkin in and labelling

It feels like I have less amount of time of continuous attention on my breath though, because my attention is going around introspective and extrospective awareness (and distractions obviously) as well, but I guess it's normal ? and it feels like I have more control of my attention, and less risks of falling into mind wandering/forgetting

Jordan, I really understand your current predicament. It is tricky where to really focus on to get the benefits. 

Here is what worked for me at the start.

Even though awareness is REALLY important, if you have bad concentration on the breath, just do some practices to focus on the breath as consistently as you can. You gotta develop that stable attention ASAP.

Seriously make an effort to not lose the breath. Keep it clear and bright.

Don't worry about awareness just yet because in the beginning, our conscious power of awareness is not enough to maintain both exclusive attention to the breath and extrospective awareness of the external world. 

The only cue must be dullness at the beginning. When you feel sleepy, ease your attention on the breath and focus on sounds, bodily sensations, straighten the spine and open the eyes. Re-energize the mind. And as soon as the breath gets clearer, gently but firmly return to the breath.

Eventually, you'll get there by fusing attention and awareness. At that moment, the practice will become awareness and sensory clarity oriented and you'll stop emphasizing the breath concentration so much. But until then, you gotta make an effort with pig headed determination.

Hope it works out for you, friend  Just keep it up and you'll get there.

 

[Jordan94]

On 08/07/2019 at 1:07 AM, ardacigin said:

Jordan, I really understand your current predicament. It is tricky where to really focus on to get the benefits. 

Here is what worked for me at the start.

Even though awareness is REALLY important, if you have bad concentration on the breath, just do some practices to focus on the breath as consistently as you can. You gotta develop that stable attention ASAP.

Seriously make an effort to not lose the breath. Keep it clear and bright.

Don't worry about awareness just yet because in the beginning, our conscious power of awareness is not enough to maintain both exclusive attention to the breath and extrospective awareness of the external world. 

The only cue must be dullness at the beginning. When you feel sleepy, ease your attention on the breath and focus on sounds, bodily sensations, straighten the spine and open the eyes. Re-energize the mind. And as soon as the breath gets clearer, gently but firmly return to the breath.

Eventually, you'll get there by fusing attention and awareness. At that moment, the practice will become awareness and sensory clarity oriented and you'll stop emphasizing the breath concentration so much. But until then, you gotta make an effort with pig headed determination.

Hope it works out for you, friend  Just keep it up and you'll get there.

Thanks, yea kinda tricky this balance between attention and awareness and find the optimal spot or somewhere close, I think too that for me a bit more on the side of too much attention on the breath is better than too much focus on awareness rather than attention, although I feel too that if I completly neglect awareness I forget the breath more easily too

 

But I've been making really good progress with some changes recently, thanks to hanging out and reading more on the TMI subreddit, i found some other really helpful informations and spotted some mistakes that i was doing

 

Basically I think I was doing a big mistake about my way of puting "intention" on following the breath for example

I was mostly puting one or a few big/intense intention, that also easily increased expectations/pressure/jugement, and what I think now is a way more efficient way to do is to is to have A LOT of small intentions, so way more frequent/more number of moments of intention, but lighter intention, now basically every breath cycle i have a small intention on observing the begining of the next in breath for example

Seems to work way better on that way, and in the past few days I've had way better focus (and awareness) doing like that, so quite happy and excited about that change, and we'll see in the next few weeks how it'll go like that