Effective & Advanced Vipassana/Self Inquiry Guide For Stream Entry

[Enlightenment]

29 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

But I think spiritual talent matters more when it comes to consistently having insight experiences and permanent awakening experiences. Some people are MUCH more likely to have these experiences naturally (and even without any meditation background).

And I don't know why that happens  

The biggest factor to awakening is finding a practice/method that fits you. I don't know if you are familiar with Jeffery Martin and his study but that's been the most important finding. My case is also a proof for this, there is only one practice (mantra) that works for me in terms of generating insight and permanent shifts. These practices:

• Awareness-centered practices: Directly placing attention on awareness itself using verbal and non-verbal techniques, during individual or group practice.

• Direct inquiry: Using the mind, emotions, and sensations to actively dig into and seek the truth of one’s self. This is done by constant attention to what the Narrative-Self feels like, or actively trying to deconstruct it through ongoing probing and questioning.

• Mantra-based practices: Using specific words or sounds as an object of concentration for meditative purposes. They may or may not have a meaning, and can be recited aloud or silently. Found across all major religions and spiritual traditions, their most common purpose is to quiet the mind.

• Mindfulness-based practices: Contemplative and meditative techniques for focusing on the present moment in a non-reactive way. Generally, the goal is to obtain a stable, non-judgmental awareness of arising thoughts, emotions, and sensations.

• Noting-based practices: Awareness and mental labeling of ongoing experience. Noting can be done silently or aloud. Both internal (thoughts, emotions, and sensations) and external events can be noted. Traditionally, an individual practice in recent years forms of ‘social noting’ has become popular that involves noting out-loud with one or more others.

+ all the vipassana techniques from TMI are top tier techniques 

So IMO the best way to go about it is to test them one after one on yourself and find out what works. Once you have found something producing either temporary or lasting changes, do it as long as it works, when it stops - either change a technique slightly or try a different one.

28 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

But I don't know if I buy that 'I've accessed stage 10 in 6 weeks' business. Unless he had a semi-permanent insight realization like 'Arising and Passing Away', a beginner meditator can't go that deep, that fast.  He is either already skilled in meditation or he is mistaking the concentration in subtle dullness as stage 10 practice. 

Yea, I doubt it too.

29 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

Maybe the single most effective way to validate these sort of claims is to ask:

'Can you meditate for 3-4 hours in SDS consistently with minimal suffering?'

For a matured Stage 10 practitioner, that must be more than doable. 

Either that or EEG scan. Stage 10 practitioner should have greatly elevated gamma brain waves and more coherence. You in stage 8 have more gamma too.

37 minutes ago, archi said:

Speaking of time, I sense that you are comparing penises, I assume it is not important .

It may seem like comparing penises but it really is a legit way to find out someone's meditation skills. Even Shizen Young said that if your attention has not wandered from the breath for about 4h, then you are developing Samatha.

[Tetcher]

@ardacigin crazy stuff. When you say that you experience samhadhi is this a tangible experience, are you really able to come back to an existential experience reliably ? How do you describe it, is it a matter of understanding/realization, a configuration of mind, existential coordinates of your witnessing point ? Because you see my problem is that I tried practices but no realization ever crystalized in a way it became self sustaining. So now I'm taking refuge in the knowledge that I will never access deeper levels of realization, I just want to abide in my compulsions so I can live peacefully, striving being such a hassle. But if you are reliably able to get to a deeper experience of existence it means that some realization or understanding crystalized and is self sustaining. How did it happen ?

[Esoteric]

@ardacigin Very cool. Thanks for sharing and for the effort you put into this. I incorporate some of Shinzen's techniques in my everyday life, like "hear in, feel in, see in". I had such a flow with that technique for many days straight that my ego backlashed for months. He is great. Never heard of Culadasa actually. Will definitely check him out. Sounds like he is a consciousness nerd just like Shinzen

[ardacigin]

32 minutes ago, Tetcher said:

@ardacigin crazy stuff. When you say that you experience samhadhi is this a tangible experience, are you really able to come back to an existential experience reliably ? How do you describe it, is it a matter of understanding/realization, a configuration of mind, existential coordinates of your witnessing point ? Because you see my problem is that I tried practices but no realization ever crystalized in a way it became self sustaining. So now I'm taking refuge in the knowledge that I will never access deeper levels of realization, I just want to abide in my compulsions so I can live peacefully, striving being such a hassle. But if you are reliably able to get to a deeper experience of existence it means that some realization or understanding crystalized and is self sustaining. How did it happen ?

Deep Samadhi is a high degree of concentration, sensory clarity, introspective/extrospective awareness and equanimity. You know intuitively that your experience of reality changes. The thoughts significantly subside. The mind is energized. The distinction between the skin where the outside world begins gets blurrier. Pain sensitivity goes down. And you are in a state of flow.

This samadhi is NOT permanent. But it is a tangible experience. It is caused by my daily practice and conditioned to deepen as long as I continue the practice. Culadasa himself said that even an adept Stage 10 meditator can go all the way down to Stage 1-2 practice if they completely stop training the mind for a long period of time. 

I've personally tried a 7 day no meditation challenge and experienced fixated monkey mind, but my skills are still intact. You don't lose all of your hard earned equanimity and concentration. You just lose some muscle memory. So keep that in mind. Here is my 7 day no meditation report: 

 

As to permanent realization pertaining to insight experiences, you do insight practices like self-inquiry, a meditation on the mind and various other techniques to penetrate reality.

I've only experienced a few temporary insight experiences of no-self. The latest one happened 3-4 days ago. It was just like losing the boundary between skin and the outside world. Literally, this is how I've experienced reality for about 5 seconds before I fell asleep. 

Prior to this, I've meditated for about 30 mins, experienced A LOT of extreme sensations in the body like boredom, sweating, aversion to practice, dullness etc. Everything just came on with full force. Then I said: 'I can't do this anymore. Let me lie down for a while.I think I'm gonna sleep'

Then I got really sleepy, I was very tired and my body got unusually relaxed. I was just about to fall asleep and this no boundary insight experience occurred for 5 seconds.

Maybe if I didn't fall asleep afterward, I would've experienced it as a more permanent realization. I also can't remember exactly how I fell asleep after those 5 seconds. I was definitely sleepy but that transition phase is still blurry for me. I've no idea what happened there.

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by ardacigin

[ardacigin]

18 minutes ago, Esoteric said:

@ardacigin Very cool. Thanks for sharing and for the effort you put into this. I incorporate some of Shinzen's techniques in my everyday life, like "hear in, feel in, see in". I had such a flow with that technique for many days straight that my ego backlashed for months. He is great. Never heard of Culadasa actually. Will definitely check him out. Sounds like he is a consciousness nerd just like Shinzen

Culadasa is a spiritual beast. You must read his book as soon as possible  Here is a video from him: 

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by ardacigin

[Esoteric]

@ardacigin I will buy his book

[noselfnofun]

@ardacigin  Thanks great insights I'm currently aiming for about 2x 2 hour SDS a day and I am reading Culadasa's book. Have you ever tried a retreat? After my 4th retreat my sensitivity to pain decreased dramatically and I could do SDS alot easier after.

Also I had an insight once where I completely vanished from experience, just pure nothingness, completely beyond anything is this shamadhi? Sounds similar to what you are describing?

[ardacigin]

30 minutes ago, noselfnofun said:

@ardacigin  Thanks great insights I'm currently aiming for about 2x 2 hour SDS a day and I am reading Culadasa's book. Have you ever tried a retreat? After my 4th retreat my sensitivity to pain decreased dramatically and I could do SDS alot easier after.

Also I had an insight once where I completely vanished from experience, just pure nothingness, completely beyond anything is this shamadhi? Sounds similar to what you are describing?

I can describe my sense of self as 'vanished' from experience for about 5 seconds but I don't have a clear insight into 'nothingness' yet. I don't think that my latest insight was that multi-layered. It was a profund insight experience into no-self. But that was it. Nothingness is a slightly different insight. Another important facet of awakening. I haven't penetrated to it yet. 

Nothingness or emptiness is basically the insight into how everything in our conscious perceptive reality is a mental construct (which includes the sense of being a self). This is basically what Leo means by 'everything is imagination'.

I'm sure Leo also points to other nuanced insights with this but this is what I understand.

Now I know the spiritual theory. I also had some solid insights into no-self. I can get a 'sense' of how this might be true intuitively. But this insight into mental construction of reality is very deep. It is deeper than a single no-self insight. It also includes a deep insight into impermanence as well. 

I've recently started the path of insight so I can't comment a lot on some of the deeper insights due to lack of direct experience  

Hopefully this was useful.

Edited July 4, 2019 by ardacigin

[Space]

@ardacigin I read TMI sometime last year and spent a good 3 or 4 months working with the breath technique in the book. I literally saw no improvements whatsoever in my level of concentration. For some reason i've always struggled with breath meditation. Even if I was counting the breath I couldn't stay concentrated on it. I always fall asleep with breath meditation as well. Maybe because I use the breath to help me go to sleep at night. I can see the TMI technique being extremely effective for some people, though. It's a really excellent book for beginners who want to start serious meditation.

Conversely, if it sit down and do something like Do Nothing or even if I do the type of 'dry' self-inquiry that Leo has talked about in the past, my mind gets very very quiet, especially with self-inquiry! 

Thanks for sharing your progress and insights

[ardacigin]

2 hours ago, Space said:

@ardacigin I read TMI sometime last year and spent a good 3 or 4 months working with the breath technique in the book. I literally saw no improvements whatsoever in my level of concentration. For some reason i've always struggled with breath meditation. Even if I was counting the breath I couldn't stay concentrated on it. I always fall asleep with breath meditation as well. Maybe because I use the breath to help me go to sleep at night. I can see the TMI technique being extremely effective for some people, though. It's a really excellent book for beginners who want to start serious meditation.

Conversely, if it sit down and do something like Do Nothing or even if I do the type of 'dry' self-inquiry that Leo has talked about in the past, my mind gets very very quiet, especially with self-inquiry! 

Thanks for sharing your progress and insights

Yes. I have a few friends like you who can't get into TMI. Interesting how you've experienced no development of concentration. Also, sleepiness is normal since you've probably conditioned for it before going to sleep every night. 

It is great if 'do nothing' approach works for you  These 'call of the search' type of practices are definitely powerful and I use it a lot more nowadays post Stage 7 practice. Thanks for sharing your practice.

Edited July 4, 2019 by ardacigin

[Leo Gura]

My point was, the effectiveness of your training will depend a lot on your pre-existing spiritual attunement and how your brain/mind functions. Imagine doing the same amount of practice but your progress is 100x less. That is more like the reality for many peeps.

The average person cannot climb 10 stages in 1 year. That's pipedreams.

But of course you'll never know until you try, so don't prematurely limit yourself.

[ValiantSalvatore]

@ardacigin

16 hours ago, ardacigin said:

I've only experienced a few temporary insight experiences of no-self. The latest one happened 3-4 days ago. It was just like losing the boundary between skin and the outside world. Literally, this is how I've experienced reality for about 5 seconds before I fell asleep. 

Prior to this, I've meditated for about 30 mins, experienced A LOT of extreme sensations in the body like boredom, sweating, aversion to practice, dullness etc. Everything just came on with full force. Then I said: 'I can't do this anymore. Let me lie down for a while.I think I'm gonna sleep'

Then I got really sleepy, I was very tired and my body got unusually relaxed. I was just about to fall asleep and this no boundary insight experience occurred for 5 seconds.

Thanks for sharing this. I have some issues around what constitutes as a no-self experience I read the four stages of enlightenment on wikipedia. I also know which pratices or pattern in shinzen youngs system works for reaching a no-self stage.

Otherwise, I had a similar experience, yet I was so exhausted and I praticed some compassionate meditation techniques such as tong-leng or shinzen youngs feel good and at the beginning some body sweeping exercises, that I decided okay it's time to accept that I can't deal with this pain anymore. I can keep pushing, yet alone it's difficult sometimes and I would rather rely on flexibility instead of pure willpower. 

Therefore, I laid down and I had a 0.5 - 1 second experience of seeing and entering the countours of white light and I went into it but, did not make it very far... So I snapped out of it. It was definitely caused by relaxation this is one technique from shinzen that I use the least. I don't think many people... realize that rest is a steady state. 


Also, I had some weird experiences with "no-self" which makes it difficult for me to distinguish of what no-self is. For e.g did I fall asleep or did I go deep, I asked shinzen he told me I went deep, I asked the zen master I did the retreat with he was making sure if I did not fall asleep I assured him I did not. He said nothing. Soto zen....


So, I am quite sure I went deep, yet ordinary consciouness wanted me back and my self was scared in that moment. Not, sure if anyone reads these comments but fine. I can't really tell how advanced or not advanced I am, since I apparently have to work with energies too, which makes it a bit culty. But, well. Better than exorcism. It seems similar, yet fine. 


 

Edited July 5, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[Arnold666]

Cool post. So check this out, i've been meditating for years now, constantly and still there are days that are so hectic that i barely enter the second samatha jhana. So that's how its gonna be ? Wasting hours just to get a stable concentration so i get my investigation into the tree characteristics going ? We have to bypass the mind, directly, effectively, every time with a 100% ratio of hitting it. Do this and i will asure you, you will hit the pocket everytime. The answer is pranayama.

 

Before you sit on the cusion, do this: 10 second in breath, 20 second out breath, than on the 20 take a deep in for 2 seconds, than let it go for 2 seconds. Now sit and count to 40. At 40 take a deep breath in for 2 seconds and let it out for 2 seconds, than again, hold the breath for 40 seconds. So its 10-20-40-40. Do this for 15 minutes, with shambhavi mudra(looking at the 3 eye) and zbang motherfucker, you are in samatha jhana 4th like a pro. And now you can get to some true inner work like a true zenplaya. 

P.S. it will be hard at first to do the pranayama but you will get good at it, fast, especially when you will see that as soon as you are out of breath, gasping for air, immediately you have no mind. Mind is gone. You will dig it. So fuck the discomfort for air, finaly, instantly, no mind, at your comand.

and also, watch out, ego backlash, monkey mind and dark night, hits you fast and hard. You rested the mind, now it comes back like a tsunami after a 10 richter scale earth break. But you don't care, now you can bypess the mind, EVERYTIME and hit AT LEAST samatha jhana 4 and get to work. Everytime. 

This is Daniel Ingrams map from http://integrateddaniel.info/ 

[ardacigin]

3 hours ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

@ardacigin

Thanks for sharing this. I have some issues around what constitutes as a no-self experience I read the four stages of enlightenment on wikipedia. I also know which pratices or pattern in shinzen youngs system works for reaching a no-self stage.

Otherwise, I had a similar experience, yet I was so exhausted and I praticed some compassionate meditation techniques such as tong-leng or shinzen youngs feel good and at the beginning some body sweeping exercises, that I decided okay it's time to accept that I can't deal with this pain anymore. I can keep pushing, yet alone it's difficult sometimes and I would rather rely on flexibility instead of pure willpower. 

Therefore, I laid down and I had a 0.5 - 1 second experience of seeing and entering the countours of white light and I went into it but, did not make it very far... So I snapped out of it. It was definitely caused by relaxation this is one technique from shinzen that I use the least. I don't think many people... realize that rest is a steady state. 


Also, I had some weird experiences with "no-self" which makes it difficult for me to distinguish of what no-self is. For e.g did I fall asleep or did I go deep, I asked shinzen he told me I went deep, I asked the zen master I did the retreat with he was making sure if I did not fall asleep I assured him I did not. He said nothing. Soto zen....


So, I am quite sure I went deep, yet ordinary consciouness wanted me back and my self was scared in that moment. Not, sure if anyone reads these comments but fine. I can't really tell how advanced or not advanced I am, since I apparently have to work with energies too, which makes it a bit culty. But, well. Better than exorcism. It seems similar, yet fine. 


 

Okay so the profound relaxation I've experienced was almost DEFINITELY the catalyst for this experience I had 4 days ago lying down. I've validated it for myself yesterday.

 I thought to myself yesterday: 'Let me do the same insight practice again'.

As Culadasa says whenever one finds an entry point to insight, repeat the process prior to insight exactly as as it occured and try to replicate the same openness, awareness and equanimity. 

So yesterday, I sat down. Meditated for about 30 mins again. Felt some discomfort. Not as much as 4 days ago but I was quite tired overall due to taxing SDS sits I do in the mornings. 

So I laid down again. Listening to some meditation related interview. Closed my eyes. Slowly I'm feeling sleepy just like 4 days ago. When I was just about to sleep, I've felt the exact quality of 'profound relaxation' and then it happened.

The same thing happened with slightly less intensity but more permanency. In fact, I've experienced a few hours of 'significant reduction in self'. (not a full-blown no-self)  

The no-self insight wasn't dramatic like 4 days ago but it still happened. It had the same EXACT quality to it. My external boundaries disappeared. This time I didn't fall asleep and spent the rest of the day in an elevated state of samadhi where my boundaries was VERY shaky and in touch with outside. I felt weird sensations at the top of my head (where I don't normally feel anything in meditation).

It is similar to how Leo says psychedelics are purifying his neurological circuits. He said how 5 meo Dmt creates moving and morphing sensations in his brain. I've experienced moving sensation at the top of my head for a few hours in daily life. (where crown chakra is said to be).

I felt like this was a VERY strong and deep purification. In fact, I was going to write another article today explaining this partial insight penetration but I wanted to wait until some more dramatical insight occurs. It took hours for it to die down slightly. And today, I still feel its 'no-boundary' open awareness effects. But the concentration quality of this experience is mostly over. 

And I'm pretty sure this is not stream entry. I'll know when this realization gets permanent and radical. But so far so good, hopefully, I'll have another cool insight in a few days.  

I'm shocked to experience such dramatic openings happening almost on a daily basis. Stage 7 and beyond practice is insane. It is like I'm seriously tripping. Not some access concentration. 

Culadasa said that when you are in Stage 7-8-9, it is VERY unlikely to go through these stages without any profound insight experiences. He basically says that a meditator will at least have one partial but dramatic insight penetration on these stages.

I didn't think that I was going to have these insights. I didn't think that my concentration and awareness was enough. I was also a little worried.

I thought: 'Well, maybe I'll experience them once. Or maybe not. But it doesn't feel like I will. Some people just get stream entry right away. Maybe I'll be one of them. Or maybe I'll never get enlightened.'

And to my surprise, I've experienced 2 insights in the last 5 days. (With relatively replicable processes).

My mind is blown. Everything is going too smoothly. I'm pretty sure I'll hit a frustrating dead end really soon. Or maybe stream entry is coming.

My practice is getting really interesting at this point. I've mostly stopped spending time doing hobbies and whatnot. Just full on meditation as much as I can.  

Edited July 5, 2019 by ardacigin

[Enlightenment]

@ardacigin Do you have some consciousness during deep dreamless sleep? It sometimes happens to people in stage 8+

Do you drink alcohol? Does alcohol affect you differently now in effortless concentration?

Since the beginning of stage 5, as I perceive more moments of consciousness my 45/50 minutes sits gradually feel longer, somewhat like on psychedelics time seem to slow down a little bit. Does that effect continue in 7+?

I have my own hypothesis about the psychedelic experience and how it affects sub minds perceiving moments of consciousness as described in TMI. When I did my highest dose of DPT time seemed to be extremely slowed down, I would say something like 4x slower than normal.

[ardacigin]

Okay, so my perspective on Stage 7 beyond practice has deepened. Now I understand why Culadasa said that and why stages 8-9-10 are full of practices to facilitate insight. This is the point of developing all these skills. 

The insight experiences which only happened once pre-stage 7 (for me), are becoming more frequent AND deeper post-stage 7. 

In fact, that is a good way to know whether you've above stage 6: If you are having profound insight penetrations, then you are going in the right direction. And you are probably somewhere above stage 7. 

I don't drink alcohol normally. But I did drink a little bit around 10 months ago and experienced a cool state of deep samadhi with it. The only commonality I observed between drinking and samatha practice is this sense of outer boundaries disappearing with both states. Otherwise, I don't recommend alcohol usage for insight practice.

Time slowing down occurs definitely post-stage7. You'll probably have these effects much more frequently post-stage 7. I haven't experienced extreme states of 4x slower perception of time. But it is definitely possible since time is relative, mentally constructed and illusory  

I don't have any consciousness in deep sleep. I don't quite understand how that works yet.

But I do have some level of awareness in what is called the 'hypnagogic state'.

In fact, some might argue that I've taken advantage of these states to experience these insights. Maybe that 'profound relaxation' prior to insight occurred just in that transitional stage from wakefulness to sleep. 

Edited July 5, 2019 by ardacigin

[Sev]

Thank you for the post. I see many people has given credit to Culadasa's system. 

I practised SDS a year ago and didnt make any progress basically. My experience was that it felt like it strained my nervous system so much that after sitting I felt always exhausted. It felt more like it strained me more than purify. Shinzen says in his sds video that if you sit long enough with the intense pain, it finally starts flowing and suffering suddenly vanishes. He tell that he had this kind of experience in his first zen retreat. Have you ever experienced that kind of thing? 

[Enlightenment]

@Sev Here is another thing these masters either don't tell you or don't emphasize enough. Before Shinzen was able to do such long SDS and have these kinds of experiences, he was already a very good meditator. Do nothing technique as an example on this forum is very popular but what people don't understand is that Shinzen is able to do this technique properly because of his meditation skills. I don't agree with his logic of hey I'm having actual cessations in do nothing technique so let's advise this method for beginners they surely will awaken! When in fact beginners should first do whatever it takes to get to stage 8 before starting practices like do nothing or prolonged SDS.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Enlightenment

[Sev]

@Enlightenment yeah my experience supports what you said. It certainly felt that doing those techniques at the beginning of my meditation path was counterproductive. This problem also kind of boils down that teaching meditation and progressing in it is not so simple and one-dimensional. Thats why I really like Culadasa's systemic approach.

Also I feel making really progress in these techniques demands a lot of training at retreats. So it is quite time-consuming.

[ardacigin]

5 hours ago, Sev said:

Thank you for the post. I see many people has given credit to Culadasa's system. 

I practised SDS a year ago and didnt make any progress basically. My experience was that it felt like it strained my nervous system so much that after sitting I felt always exhausted. It felt more like it strained me more than purify. Shinzen says in his sds video that if you sit long enough with the intense pain, it finally starts flowing and suffering suddenly vanishes. He tell that he had this kind of experience in his first zen retreat. Have you ever experienced that kind of thing? 

I too agree that do nothing sort of practices are more effective after having good concentration skills. SDS is similar. If you don't have a good technique to supplement SDS with, then it won't be that effective. The main reason I've been so successful is thanks to Culadasa's system.

I also see the same problem in noting and labeling practices. Post stage 7, noting is FANTASTIC. The breath is already effortlessly attended and now one can develop extraordinary levels of sensory clarity while noting with introspective awareness. 

But for a beginner, maybe Mahasi Sayadaw style of full body awareness noting may not be the best way to develop sensory clarity.

As to Shinzen's experience, I definitely experienced intense pain all of a sudden no longer being a problem. I did experience it more than a few times. However, it wasn't a watershed insight moment for me. But it is definitely possible since I suspect that my nervous system changes its mode of understanding towards physical pain in those periods of time.

It tends to happen after 75 mins of SDS for me. (If I'm experiencing a lot of pain).

Edited July 5, 2019 by ardacigin